The depth shall be 60, 60 shall the depth be, 61 is right out unless your AOW certified????

[KenGordon]

I very recently went through OW cert classes. I was less than impressed by the one-or-two-and-done approach with things like air sharing...especially because it was all so well announced in advance. At one point we were sitting on the bottom of a 12 ft. pool watching class mates demonstrating that they could remove/replace their BC so, unannounced, I gave my dive buddy OOA and Lets-share-air signals as a bit of extra practice. It took a long time for him to respond with anything other than a look of confusion. I was kind of hoping that later he'd surprise me with the same thing...he didn't.

Anyway, I mentioned this in another thread and have had a couple folks jump on me and say that was completely inappropriate behavior on my part and that they would be very angry with me if I did that to them.

So, if people are saying what I did is not OK(don't freak people out man!), I can't imagine that they would really support more a more rigorous training program...

FWIW, I remain unashamed of what I did...if someone did get mad at me, I wouldn't be annoyed by their response, but I sure would go find another partner.

You are supposed to be doing what you are told. While the other students are practicing a skill the instructor will be paying attention to them. If you start doing random stuff which may lead to an issue or just distract the instructor you are a nuisance.

 

[AfterDark]

It wasn't hard to learn at all, nor was doing it during the equipment exchange. But I think it would be very confusing for a lot of people if they did it a time or two in OW course, never practised it, and found reason to have to do it 3 years later (if there is a reason).
The reason DMs still learn it? -- Other than boulderjohn's point of problem solving during the course, I have no idea.

I agree not hard to learn with a single hose, a little more attention is required with a double hose.
I learned BB in 1968 never practiced it after that, then around 1980something I had to do for real in an OOA situation, with someone who had never been trained in it. The drill went smooth as silk. I guess us old timers are a different. Personally I think it's easier than air sharing. The divers don't have to find and reach for a alternate, both know the location of the regulator to be shared and as a bonus the regulator's 2nd stage isn't full of sand. Seems to me the "harassment" drill was a more effective problem solving drill, especially with double hose regulators and D rings holding the harness straps together. Ever try redoing D-rings without a mask?

 

[Killerflyingbugs]

Ever try redoing D-rings without a mask?

yes, if you are talking about the double 'D' rings on the belt of a harness.

 

[jonhall]

At one point we were sitting on the bottom of a 12 ft. pool watching class mates demonstrating that they could remove/replace their BC so, unannounced, I gave my dive buddy OOA and Lets-share-air signals as a bit of extra practice. It took a long time for him to respond with anything other than a look of confusion. I was kind of hoping that later he'd surprise me with the same thing...he didn't.

First of all you say you were only practicing hand signals. If that were the extent of it I don't see too much of a problem, BUT if you were expecting for your buddy to share air, then that would have been a problem for me.

Agree with KenGordan on this. Not sure what you were supposed to be doing other than watching others perform skills as you mentioned. Were you supposed to observe if others got in trouble, practice removing/replacing BC as the others, or just relax and be bored? If the instructor gave you nothing to do, then I might be a little upset myself. If the instructor gave you a task, even watching others, then, as an instructor, I would be upset you were doing something else. I only say this as you state it is in a new OW class. Not sure how well you know your dive buddy, and how often he/she reviewed the signals, but it could have been a distraction to others in class who understood the signals and the instructor and a way to make your buddy feel awkward or distracted from what they were doing in their bored situation. Was this particular OW course designed for any student to throw in surprises when they thought it was appropriate? And again, if you were expecting an actual air share, that would have been a flat out mistake.

The look of confusion on your buddy's face shouldn't be surprising. If everyone could learn, retain, react at the same rate, it would make communication a whole lot easier.

When I first started diving I assumed that everyone had the same training that I did because they had a C-Card. I found out otherwise. At least you were both taught the same hand signals. Recently an instructor was going over the signals with his students and he did a well-known signal but applied a different meaning to it. My response was "everyone knows that means moray eel."

I agree with you. My buddies were my wife and son and we knew the same things that we were trained in! Now I dive with a buddy who is a proficient diver, but not quite as knowledgeable as me (because I read SB - lol), but the few things we know for each other are basic signals and that we both have integrated alternate air sources. Unbeknownst to him, I now keep a closer eye on him because he had a heart attack just over a year ago.

He skimmed the material, used the search functions for the questions and did the test. I would not call that learning. I made him go over it more in depth after he passed the written test! If that is current 'better teaching methods' I would really question the quality of the students coming out of OW.
They very much need the hand holding that AOW training provides. Even after AOW, I still see a lot of 'weak' divers. Unfortunately the agencies have become little more than a student mill. AOW existed (although it was not even mentioned in my course) when I learned to dive. It was not being used at that time as a mechanism to provide additional supervision as it is today. It was not until the 1990's that I had met a known AOW diver that was not a DM or instructor in my circles! It was bluntly never even talked about in the '80's on a boat. Skills were the key to the type of diving being done, not a piece of plastic.

No handholding with AOW I took. I'm 61 and for AOW, I skimmed the material, used the search functions for the questions, and did the test, although as I was going for my AOW (couple of weeks ago) the test was first, I guess to see what I knew.

Unfortunately there are so many types of learners, and the way a student learns has not just changed from my day to the present, but from just a couple of years ago to today. There's no prescription bottle, as attested to by the various opinions/experiences/levels of SB'ers', that you can keep pulling the perfect diver out of and the perfect response to a thread. If every diver had the same physical abilities, including skills, and mental abilities (knowledge, comfort level), what fun would SB be?

You do not need to be able to swim to learn to dive.

Have heard this and know some weak swimmers who dive, but it does help!

I wish I could remember when I learned to swim. I remember getting in pools and playing and swimming underwater playing Marco Polo, but remember no formal training until I took the class as part of PE in high school. Pretty basic stuff. In college I went to the pool occasionally and during my senior year, I took a lifesaving course, which btw was skim the chapters and answer the questions for each chapter. At this point, the worst thing for me to do was a 400 or 500 yd swim. I was a basketball player, not a swimmer! Well, somewhere in the next year I became a water safety instructor, as did my wife. I taught swimming my first years as a teacher in a pool that had an attached 16 foot deep diving area. I also coached swimming along with teaching students of different levels, beginner and up. Also trained lifeguards, who were generally the swim team members. I would have the more advanced, and all lifeguard students, learn to clear ears, retrieve masks and snorkels from the 16 ft and clear them both on a breath, retrieve clothes from the deep and inflate them as pfd's, learn to walk in fins, use a canoe (borrowed from the red cross) to learn some boat skills, retrieve and swim with more than one brick (I know, torture), and use Resusci Anne for MtoM and CPR. Just a variety of skills as I had these kids 5 days a week for 3 weeks (lifeguards longer.) I bring this up because I also did everything. 18 years later when my family decided to take scuba, the water skills were a breeze for my wife and I. My son being 12 and the weaker of us, swimming-wise, did fine in the confined water skills and the first 3 OW dives. He couldn't clear his ears on final OW dive and never got certified....doggone it!

IMO, if people interested in diving, would take the time to become stronger swimmers, the diving would become easier (was glad to read earlier in thread, there are swimming requirements now.) It would also benefit people to learn to use a mask and snorkel without problems also. It might take care of some of the fears. Have seen several people take advantage of the free scuba lessons given at some resorts - in the 4 ft water (standing depth) they are fine, but as soon as they move to a greater depth, fear creeps in and they can't do it.

I'm a vacation diver and admit early on, when I was getting about 4 dives in a year, I had to review a lot before diving. Today, it seems to have become pretty much second nature knowing how to perform in the water, the nomenclature, and setting up my gear. Still see people, OW and AOW, as well as DM's doing all sorts of things that could be considered not very skillful. That appears to be the nature of scuba diving.

If people were a little closer to fitting into that prescription bottle I mentioned above, we could all have some pretty enjoyable dives!

 

[NAM001]

You are supposed to be doing what you are told. While the other students are practicing a skill the instructor will be paying attention to them. If you start doing random stuff which may lead to an issue or just distract the instructor you are a nuisance.

I agree there are certain things that are more prone to going wrong. air sharing is one of them.

 

[dmaziuk]

I'd count diving while unable to swim as another.

 

[KenGordon]

I'd count diving while unable to swim as another.

It certainly avoids overconfidence, and of course the mitigation is one to one teaching so the student doesn't need to find stuff to do to keep them from falling asleep in the lesson.

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree there are certain things that are more prone to going wrong. air sharing is one of them.

Tend to agree. AfterDark's point that air sharing is maybe a bit more complicated than buddy breathing (ie. more steps to memorize, I guess) may also be true. Several instructors have told me and classes that the need to air share in real situations usually means some of the proper steps tend to go out the window. I would think the problem with either of these things is lack of regular diving and lack of practising either one. That also may be the difference between a lot of today's divers compared to decades ago. Though I am retired from DMing courses and almost always dive solo now, I do review both procedures once weekly (on land of course--just go through the motions, as with all the skills). I figure better than nothing. I also advise this for those taking a serious break from diving--especially new divers.

 

[packrat12]

I was hanging using a CCR on deco with 2 other divers recently when both of them started to run out of their gasses (for one of them all of their gas). At one point my rich and deep bailouts had been donated to both of them. It would have been very interesting if my CCR had failed or if I had carried only 1 BO for that dive.... We would have seen if they could buddy breath with each other... maybe even see if they could swim faster than me.. Buddy breathing still has uses but maybe not so much since Octos. I still will say it is an interesting skill that really teaches control. I personally am happy I learned the skill.

 

[AdivingBel]

What exactly were all the steps to air sharing? Hey, my reg doesn't work. Give me your octo. Purge. Breathe. Kind of like what happens when you pull your own reg out of your mouth to smile at the camera 'cause you're so happy to be diving. Try getting your reg back even though you don't turn it loose while buddy breathing with a freaked out (saucer eyed ) insta-buddy 'cause they are OOA. I'll take air share with a safe second any day. Progress...ahhh. Keeping sand out of your octo isn't that hard. The wife and I share air all the time just balancing tanks to extend bottom time. Easy peasy.