Full Face mask Cave diving.

[Jack Hammer]

If you really need yo ssy something, learn to speak through your reg, it works when you are near each other

 

[boulderjohn]

If you really need yo ssy something, learn to speak through your reg, it works when you are near each other

It would not have worked in the three cases I cited.

 

[Jack Hammer]

it works when you are near each other

It would not have worked in the three cases I cited.

Obviously. ☺

 

[boulderjohn]

I recently could have used a communication device on an unusual dive. I was part of a team exploring a very tight and silty system, one that required a zero visibility exit on every dive. At the end of a dive day, we decided that someone should go into the first part and clear it out as well as possible to improve entries and exits for the next day's work. Leaving it overnight should clear it out. We further decided it was a one person job--having a buddy in that case would be more dangerous than not having one. I was the one to go in, and our safety procedure was for me to tell them how long I would be in there so that people would come in looking for me if I overstayed the plan.

It all went better than expected because I had better than expected visibility to start. I worked carefully to move rocks, keeping the visibility surpisingly good. When I saw my time was getting close, I shifted to the main task of disturbing the silt banks, digging my arms in deeply, pulling out the fine muck and throwing it up and behind me into the flow as I moved toward the exit, getting there in a huge cloud of silt exactly on time.

I would have loved to have a communication device because things had been going so unexpectedly well before I reached my announced time. I had plenty of gas, so I could have stayed much longer and accomplished much more if I could have stayed longer--all I needed was a way of telling people things were great and I was going to stay longer.

 

[Oldbear]

Seems like there is always two perfectly good sides to every coin...

 

[kensuf]

I can think of two very recent fatalities and near fatality that might have been avoided if two divers had had the ability to communicate effectively over not too much of a distance.

In one case, two divers got separated by a significant silt out. One who got clear of the silt out was unaware of the status of the other who was still in a silted out tunnel and decided to head for the exit with a working scooter, apparently hoping to get help there. The other emerged shortly after from the silt out without a working scooter and almost made it to the exit by swimming out.

There's a lot more to the first fatality and a full face mask would not have helped the situation.

Let's start with the fact that they did not have adequate gas planning for that dive. Scooting, on just twin cylinders and no stage bottles, to over 4000' in Devil's Ear is not wise. Shoot, I won't do that with my CCR (I'll pack twin bailout tanks plus an extra stage to do that dive they did).

Next, the buddy separation and response to that.

There was speculation and noise that the decedent had a history of just leaving, and that's why the survivor took it for granted that the buddy was not there, and why the survivor went for the door. There are multiple ways that could have been a non-issue, and this should have been addressed on the surface before the dive after the first time the decedent split. The simplest solution would be if each member left a cookie at each navigational decision (the jump at 3000' back would have two cookies, one for each person), but picked it up on the exit. If the survivor got to that jump and saw the buddy's cookie, the survivor should have gone into the standard "lost buddy protocol" and waited / searched for the buddy with a reasonable idea that the buddy was further into the cave. But since they didn't do this, the survivor had no idea where the buddy was in the cave.

 

[kensuf]

Saturday I was with one of my dive buddies. We were 3000' back in a fairly silty cave, 210' deep, and we came to a spot where the line was broken. I had a 1000' reel clipped off on my butt d-ring, and tried to reach it to patch the line, but was having some problems because my bailout bottles got in the way (side-mount). I mumbled through my DSV "grab the reel" to my buddy, and although it took a few attempts to get my point across, he finally figured it out.

A full face mask might have probably saved me 30 seconds of communicating. But it would have added additional problems.

 

[boulderjohn]

There's a lot more to the first fatality and a full face mask would not have helped the situation.

You explained why the situation should not have happened int he first place. You explained how they could have done things better. I agree with absolutely everything you said. You did not, however, explain why the ability to communicate would not have helped the situation.

Notice that although the thread starts with the idea of full face masks with coms (which is the solution Bernie Chowdhury decied on for technical diving problems, BTW), I just said communication. There was another thread recently about a potential device that would transmit a simple buzz over moderate distances. I can see (with something along the lines of a morse code) as having some benefit.

 

[Oldbear]

...There was another thread recently about a potential device that would transmit a simple buzz over moderate distances. I can see (with something along the lines of a morse code) as having some benefit.

What about an underwater air horn like some connect to their LPIs....may connect it to an argon bottle so not to expend breathing gas?

 

[karstdvr]

You did not, however, explain why the ability to communicate would not have helped the situation.

.

Since the original post is about a FFM and having that as a means of communication in cave diving,then I agree with Ken, the additional few minutes gained in being able to verbally communicate is not beneficial versus the technical issues with a FFM and reduced ease of redundancy. If a dive has good planning from the start, then the need for communication is reduced during the dive to only unplanned situations. If there is good team work among the divers, and contingencies such as separation, silt out, restrictions etc really result in less need for much communication because a SOP is in place. Hence in the examples previously presented, there was a lack of communication,not in the cave,but before these individuals ever got in the cave.