Do you think your OW class should have covered some areas better?

[tursiops]

On the other hand, may be the OP was commenting on what should be covered in the class rather than whether the instructor was training to standards. My OW class covered a lot of material that never made it to the book, never mind required by standards.


Bob

IIRC (I'd look it up but haven't quite figured out how to work the new SB yet!), the OP has been on quite a rant about how he and his wife had a really bad, dangerous experience because they were never told in their SSI OW class about pulling the LPI hose off if the BC started to fill. Atlhough it is unlikely the topic was not mentioned, he insists it was not covered, and says others in the class agree. So now this thread is about what else was not covered? Fair enough, but the important points are (1) there is a difference between what was taught and what was remembered, (2) even if taught, many OW topics are never thought about or practiced after the class, and (3) You can't cover everything in one OW class, but the material that is part of the standards of the agencies is based on the the life threatening stuff, not the nuances and refinements.for which there is no time and which the students are not ready for.

Your comment is that the instructor covered more than he should have, but the issue is whether the critical stuff is being covered. I think it is. But it may not be being learned and remembered, and it is certainly not being practiced.
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Added: I just cross-posted with the OP again saying it was not in his class. Fine. But my point is that even if it were, it would likely be forgotten. That is the bigger issue.

 

[Z Gear]

IIRC (I'd look it up but haven't quite figured out how to work the new SB yet!), the OP has been on quite a rant about how he and his wife had a really bad, dangerous experience because they were never told in their SSI OW class about pulling the LPI hose off if the BC started to fill. Atlhough it is unlikely the topic was not mentioned, he insists it was not covered, and says others in the class agree. So now this thread is about what else was not covered? Fair enough, but the important points are (1) there is a difference between what was taught and what was remembered, (2) even if taught, many OW topics are never thought about or practiced after the class, and (3) You can't cover everything in one OW class, but the material that is part of the standards of the agencies is based on the the life threatening stuff, not the nuances and refinements.for which there is no time and which the students are not ready for.

Your comment is that the instructor covered more than he should have, but the issue is whether the critical stuff is being covered. I think it is. But it may not be being learned and remembered, and it is certainly not being practiced.
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Added: I just cross-posted with the OP again saying it was not in his class. Fine. But my point is that even if it were, it would likely be forgotten. That is the bigger issue.

I am really trying to understand where you come up with this stuff. No one is saying that my wife and I "had a really bad experience, dangerous experience.." We have not yet encountered a situation where there was an inflator malfunction, Thank Goodness. I am just surprise my SSI manual and OW class training did not cover this. I think you need to chill out a bit and make this more objective and be a bit more understanding.
Don't assume someone is on a rant when they are just concerned about a certain aspect of training, As an instructor I would assume you have an interest in how to better provide adequate training and addressing concerns that some might have and this would be an opportunity to make things better not worse. We are all in many ways learning from each other if we can keep it objective we can actually get somewhere respectfully.

 

[Bob DBF]

I didn't say my instructor covered more than he should have. Classes were longer back then and I, personally, don't think they needed to be shortened.

As for a leaking inflator filling the BC, my first experience with one, I just dumped enough air so that I slowly surfaced. When I learned how to dive I didn't have a BC and my first horse collar BC was oral inflation only, so this was a completely new experience.

I do my own service so I have never had that problem on my own gear. Most of the equipment emergencies can be completely avoided by good inspection and maintainance.


Bob

 

[tursiops]

I am really trying to understand where you come up with this stuff. No one is saying that my wife and I "had a really bad experience, dangerous experience.." We have not yet encountered a situation where there was an inflator malfunction, Thank Goodness. I am just surprise my SSI manual and OW class training did not cover this. I think you need to chill out a bit and make this more objective and be a bit more understanding.
Don't assume someone is on a rant when they are just concerned about a certain aspect of training, As an instructor I would assume you have an interest in how to better provide adequate training and addressing concerns that some might have and this would be an opportunity to make things better not worse. We are all in many ways learning from each other if we can keep it objective we can actually get somewhere respectfully.

Z Gear, I apologize. I spent some time this morning and figured out many of the new buttons and queries on the new SB, and located the original discussion where you said you'd not had the LPI training in your SSI OW class. I had misremembered what you said and conflated your postings with those in another thread (which I have not yet located) where a husband and wife popped to the surface because they'd forgotten about disconnecting the hose.In their case, they said they'd had the training, but had forgotten it. That is my big point, and I'm sorry I improperly put you in the middle.

The OW classes cover lots of things that are truly survival skills (LPI hose, don't hold your breath, slow ascents, mind your SPG and depth gauge and bottom-time, CESA, air-sharing, no-mask swimming, buddy skills, etc) and which by-and-large are never practiced after the cert dives and are mostly forgotten. That is my big concern. Yes, you are worried about things that are not in the OW class that should be. I'm not worried about that: I think the critical things ARE in the OW class. Sure, there are more things one could add, but are they critical to the survival of a new diver? Trim, kicks, buoyancy perfection, gas usage, all the things that SB posters go on about.....that is what continuing education and mentoring and just plain diving is all about. But all that additional stuff is not INSTEAD of occasionally practicing an alternate-air-source ascent, or taking 30-60 seconds to get to the surface from a safety stop, or disconnecting your LPI hose while simultaneously depressing the air-release button.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My biggest beef with OW classes in general ... in the context of the material the agencies provide ... is that they give you a lot of easy-to-remember rules of thumb without giving you much information about why it's important. Things like "never hold your breath", "end the dive with 500 psi", "do a 3-5 minute safety stop", and "dive with a buddy" are all well and good ... but what's missing in most classes is how to do it, why to do it, and when it might be prudent NOT to do it. Diving is a very situational activity ... and rules of thumb for beginners serve an important role in developing skills. But without context they sometimes do more harm than good. This is a particular concern with the increasing popularity of online training, since you are now relying completely on the book rather than on a live instructor who can fill in the gaps. The book is written in general terms, and tends to gloss over things that may not be important to the largest target audience ... the tropical diver who's going on a guided tour ... while leaving out things that could be critical to the diver who's going to be diving in an environment where the water is cold, or murky, and will not have the services of a dive guide to rely on.

On the subject of topics not covered ... gas management is the most critical omission in OW training. "Watch your gauge and end the dive at 500 psi" is simply inadequate, as evidenced by the number of OOA and LOA experiences every year. The simple fact is that, with the exception of a critical equipment failure, nobody should ever run out of breathing gas. But people do with some regularity, primarily due to the fact that while they may have been told to "watch your gauge", they either get distracted and forget to or they don't realize (despite being told) that the deeper you go the faster that gauge will go down. There's a big difference between learning something and understanding what it means ... and that's the value of a live instructor who knows how to teach.

That said, my biggest beef with OW training isn't so much the curriculum as it is the fact that the standards for becoming an OW instructor are way too low ... a great many people become instructors a mere few months after getting OW certified, and have done so by chasing classes rather than gaining practical knowledge through experience. Those instructors may be able to quote the curriculum chapter and verse, but they don't generally understand it well enough to explain it to their students. Get them off the script and they're lost. Unfortunately, there is no script once you're out of class ... and the ocean doesn't always follow what the book says ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Neilwood]

My biggest beef with OW classes in general ... in the context of the material the agencies provide ... is that they give you a lot of easy-to-remember rules of thumb without giving you much information about why it's important. Things like "never hold your breath", "end the dive with 500 psi", "do a 3-5 minute safety stop", and "dive with a buddy" are all well and good ... but what's missing in most classes is how to do it, why to do it, and when it might be prudent NOT to do it. Diving is a very situational activity ... and rules of thumb for beginners serve an important role in developing skills. But without context they sometimes do more harm than good. This is a particular concern with the increasing popularity of online training, since you are now relying completely on the book rather than on a live instructor who can fill in the gaps. The book is written in general terms, and tends to gloss over things that may not be important to the largest target audience ... the tropical diver who's going on a guided tour ... while leaving out things that could be critical to the diver who's going to be diving in an environment where the water is cold, or murky, and will not have the services of a dive guide to rely on.Unfortunately for any course to be usable worldwide, there has to be compromises made about the minimum standard taught. Again unfortunately these tend to resort to lowest common denominator, not the higher standard.

On the subject of topics not covered ... gas management is the most critical omission in OW training. "Watch your gauge and end the dive at 500 psi" is simply inadequate, as evidenced by the number of OOA and LOA experiences every year. The simple fact is that, with the exception of a critical equipment failure, nobody should ever run out of breathing gas. But people do with some regularity, primarily due to the fact that while they may have been told to "watch your gauge", they either get distracted and forget to or they don't realize (despite being told) that the deeper you go the faster that gauge will go down. There's a big difference between learning something and understanding what it means ... and that's the value of a live instructor who knows how to teach.This comes down to complacency on the part of the diver not the instructor. No matter how many times or how the instructor tells the student or how well the skill is performed in the OW course, it is still up to the individual diver to actually remember to do the checking in real life. We can only hope when people inevitably do forget that they have a buddy with air or are close enough to the surface to perform a CESA or buoyant ascent and live to remember the next time.

That said, my biggest beef with OW training isn't so much the curriculum as it is the fact that the standards for becoming an OW instructor are way too low ... a great many people become instructors a mere few months after getting OW certified, and have done so by chasing classes rather than gaining practical knowledge through experience. Those instructors may be able to quote the curriculum chapter and verse, but they don't generally understand it well enough to explain it to their students. Get them off the script and they're lost. Unfortunately, there is no script once you're out of class ... and the ocean doesn't always follow what the book says ...Again unfortunately this is a sign of the times - many courses in all walks of life are more about ticking the boxes than training people to right thought patterns. I personally would rather learn the reasoning behind the script than learn the script by heart. That way you can understand where and when you can deviate from the norm and what the consequences might be.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[tursiops]

My biggest beef with OW classes in general ... in the context of the material the agencies provide ... is that they give you a lot of easy-to-remember rules of thumb without giving you much information about why it's important. Things like "never hold your breath", "end the dive with 500 psi", "do a 3-5 minute safety stop", and "dive with a buddy" are all well and good ... but what's missing in most classes is how to do it, why to do it, and when it might be prudent NOT to do it. Diving is a very situational activity ... and rules of thumb for beginners serve an important role in developing skills. But without context they sometimes do more harm than good. This is a particular concern with the increasing popularity of online training, since you are now relying completely on the book rather than on a live instructor who can fill in the gaps. The book is written in general terms, and tends to gloss over things that may not be important to the largest target audience ... the tropical diver who's going on a guided tour ... while leaving out things that could be critical to the diver who's going to be diving in an environment where the water is cold, or murky, and will not have the services of a dive guide to rely on.

On the subject of topics not covered ... gas management is the most critical omission in OW training. "Watch your gauge and end the dive at 500 psi" is simply inadequate, as evidenced by the number of OOA and LOA experiences every year. The simple fact is that, with the exception of a critical equipment failure, nobody should ever run out of breathing gas. But people do with some regularity, primarily due to the fact that while they may have been told to "watch your gauge", they either get distracted and forget to or they don't realize (despite being told) that the deeper you go the faster that gauge will go down. There's a big difference between learning something and understanding what it means ... and that's the value of a live instructor who knows how to teach.

That said, my biggest beef with OW training isn't so much the curriculum as it is the fact that the standards for becoming an OW instructor are way too low ... a great many people become instructors a mere few months after getting OW certified, and have done so by chasing classes rather than gaining practical knowledge through experience. Those instructors may be able to quote the curriculum chapter and verse, but they don't generally understand it well enough to explain it to their students. Get them off the script and they're lost. Unfortunately, there is no script once you're out of class ... and the ocean doesn't always follow what the book says ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I agree with your concern....context is critical to both understanding and retention. The PADI OW material provides that context -- the manual is very good about that -- .and the instructors are supposed to reinforce it each time they give an objective. "We are going to ascend slowly, taking 30 seconds to get from the pool bottom to the surface. The reason we do this is because..." In fact, during the candidate instructor evaluations you lose points if you do not give the context. The whole gas management thing is in the manual and in the Training Guide and part of the cert dives. But the students and their modern lack of attention span and inability to focus are severely task-loaded and other things are higher on their survival list. Again, my point is that even if it is covered in the OW class, much of that does not sink in or is forgotten afterwards.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The biggest thing my students say helps them retain the information given is time. Time in the classroom, in the pool, and between sessions to absorb the material. Since the OW class is a minimum of 6 classroom and pool sessions, with 8 being more the norm simply because I have the time available, they have plenty of time to ask questions and practice.

Having all that face time with them allows me to see that the lights are on and they actually understand the material. They are not just parroting back what's in the book. There is homework I assign and additional handouts they receive that they may be tested on. Each student, in addition to the official classroom materials with Graver's Scuba Diving 4th edition as the main text, gets a copy of my book and we refer to that for some things like gas management, planning, and the importance of diving locally and regularly.

Pool sessions are purposely kept to a maximum of four students and no more than 2 hours in duration actually in the water. I've found that more than that and students start to get cold, fatigued, and easily distracted. When any of those happens the learning process stops and they no longer absorb or retain the skills. They are not building muscle memory.

16 hours is the required time in the pool by standards. That's so the students have the necessary time to practice and retain skills. I have a family of four starting next Thursday. It's cold here and their trip to Hawaii is not until July. I have met with them once and already have them excited about seeing a bluegill nesting area in May, observing bass fry in the grass, and spending time just diving in a local lake. They specifically sought me out because I do not offer e-learning OW classes (though I could through SDI), the class takes 6-8 sessions to complete, and the schedule is flexible and not limited to certain nights and times. We can do a Thursday night one week and the next have classroom/pool on Saturday or Sunday afternoon if the wife's work schedule requires it.

I have been asked what I could possibly do in 16 hours of pool time. Well, lots of practice on the required skills, buddy breathing, no mask/blacked out mask drills, rescue skills such as non responsive diver from depth, panicked diver at the surface, rescue tow while stripping gear, and supporting a diver at the surface and helping them get positive. As well as swims through hula hoops, adjusting depth with lung volume while swimming, complete gear exchanges, station breathing, and just hanging motionless in midwater. Fine adjustment of weights and distribution of them for optimum trim. Allowing them to try jackets, back inflates, and BPW's as well. By the time they get to OW my job is easy. No worries about rapid ascents, buddy separation, or silting the site up. If those were a concern we wouldn't be there yet anyway.

 

[sheeper]

a lot of the OW class is basically "how not to die" and "how to be safe" and "what to do if..." stuff. All important BUT there needs to be (a lot) more on just how to go diving.

 

[Z Gear]

Z Gear, I apologize. I spent some time this morning and figured out many of the new buttons and queries on the new SB, and located the original discussion where you said you'd not had the LPI training in your SSI OW class. I had misremembered what you said and conflated your postings with those in another thread (which I have not yet located) where a husband and wife popped to the surface because they'd forgotten about disconnecting the hose.In their case, they said they'd had the training, but had forgotten it. That is my big point, and I'm sorry I improperly put you in the middle.

The OW classes cover lots of things that are truly survival skills (LPI hose, don't hold your breath, slow ascents, mind your SPG and depth gauge and bottom-time, CESA, air-sharing, no-mask swimming, buddy skills, etc) and which by-and-large are never practiced after the cert dives and are mostly forgotten. That is my big concern. Yes, you are worried about things that are not in the OW class that should be. I'm not worried about that: I think the critical things ARE in the OW class. Sure, there are more things one could add, but are they critical to the survival of a new diver? Trim, kicks, buoyancy perfection, gas usage, all the things that SB posters go on about.....that is what continuing education and mentoring and just plain diving is all about. But all that additional stuff is not INSTEAD of occasionally practicing an alternate-air-source ascent, or taking 30-60 seconds to get to the surface from a safety stop, or disconnecting your LPI hose while simultaneously depressing the air-release button.

Hey Tursiops, thanks for taking time and being considerate in apologizing, I really appreciate that. You make a good point, and especially from an instructors point of view it is an important one as well. I would like to add that I do feel if their are any other schools that do do teach this ( in my case SSI) or have this at least in their manual that they do so by at least sending out an amendment card for all those teaching through SSI or other schools not covering this topic. It is seems that if some schools are taking time to show this students (PADI)why should some schools opt not to. It would be at least emphasized to cover this during a class session or perhaps practice it during a pool training. I think the more people insist this be included in their training the more incline the school will be to do this. IMO

Thanks ,
Frank G