Decide between wings

[Lorenzoid]

From what I have read, it seems the best way to prevent wing floppage is not a bungee feature but rather a properly sized wing. If there is enough floppage that you notice the effect, then you should have used a smaller wing. The bulk of my diving is tropical (3 mm suit) with an aluminum 80 tank, but I didn't want to go as low as an 18-20 lb. wing because I occasionally dive a 5 mm suit with a steel tank. The DSS 26 lb. wing I chose seems to work fine in both circumstances.

 

[dmaziuk]

- I have also read that, since the Travel doesn't have any kind of "built-in" STA (like, for example, the DSS and some other wings have), it CAN let the tank get cock-eyed on the BP, if you don't use an STA. It looks to me like the Trianta would be the same. The DRiS comments mention it.

I haven't seen that one. Edit: meaning: I haven't seen that in the comments on DRiS site.


And I find it rather strange since the previous batch of trianta wings had no camband slots and couldn't work without the sta in the first place. (Rumour is the next batch due to -- finally! -- arrive today will have the slots.)


Edit: by "straps" I did not mean tank straps. I was referring to the two narrow strips connecting DR EXP bladder to the bolt holes. About every other wing has a solid piece of fabric there instead.

 

[divad]

And I find it rather strange since the previous batch of trianta wings had no camband slots and couldn't work without the sta in the first place.

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[halocline]

I'm pretty new to the sport, but yes, I'm aware that the pressure of the water pushes the air out of the bladder in the first place. My impression was that the purpose of the bungie was to keep the deflated or partially deflated wing closer to the plate rather than bent around the tank or otherwise loose. I guess it doesn't make too big of a difference with regard to turbulence since scuba is pretty slow paced as it is, but it seems like a good thing.

Those bungies won't do anything useful other than convince new divers to buy the wing, and despite what another poster might be trying to claim, it is always water pressure that collapses the wing, regardless of which vent you use. Something you don't want for buoyancy stability is a stretchy-sort of wing material that introduces another variable in the volume of the air in the wing at a given pressure. You see how that might happen with bungies? Another thing you don't want is for any air to get trapped in the wing because a bungie has created a little pocket for air. This is a real problem with the larger bungied wings that OMS is infamous for. I don't know if this Hollis wing would have either of these issues, but I know that the small "normal" wings by the usual suspects of cave diving gear definitely don't.

One of the best things about traditional hogarthian BP/W systems is their simplicity. This drives some of the bigger gear companies' marketing departments nuts, because it deprives them of nifty-sounding 'features' they can write about so the stuff will fly off the shelves.

If you really want a streamlined wing, go with the oxycheq mach5 18 lb or the DSS tropical wing. These are really tiny wings that hug the tank and vent effortlessly. But I wouldn't worry too much about it; as you mentioned, you're not moving that fast underwater and so a slightly larger-than-necessary wing is no big deal.

 

[BAMA6977]

Call DSS and talk with Tobin. You will not regret it!!

 

[ams511]

I have a 30 # wing, currently. When I'm diving warm water, and especially relatively shallow warm water, I really think I would notice and enjoy a smaller wing.

I have wings in the 20, 30, and 40 lb class, so I am speaking with experience. There is very little difference with a properly designed wing. The OP is from Florida and the diving there is not always tropical. In the winter time or in springs you do need at least a 5 mil suit, so a 30 lbs wing is a good compromise.

If I remember you have a DSS LCD 30 wing which is one of the narrowest on the market, it does not taco. The main difference between the 20 and 30 lb wings is the length, the width is only slightly different if at all. So switching to a 20 lb will not solve your tacoing problem. Air will always flow to the highest point so when you want to vent you need to make sure that either your inflator or butt dump is the highest point.

---------- Post added August 15th, 2015 at 06:17 PM ----------

The Trianta wing as a 1600 denier Cordura cover with a 15 mil urethane bladder. The Travel has a 1680 denier ballistic nylon cover with a 210 denier laminated nylon bladder. I know some other wings with urethane bladders have 20 or even 30 mil urethane, so 15 mil doesn't sound super heavy duty. But, I have no idea how 210 denier laminated nylon compares. The Marketese makes me think the DR wing would be more durable. BUT, that's just Marketese. I would definitely like to hear a knowledgeable opinion on this part.

The Trianta wing is very similar in size and shape to the Halcyon Eclipse 30 lb wing, so it dives excellent. The main drawbacks to the wing are: 1) It requires a STA, 2) the bladder is on the thin side and 3) the silly diver logo. Halcyon uses a 420 denier bladder so I don't know what 210 is like. I have never seen the DGX or Dive Rite travel wings but DSS sells compression pads that may reduce the wobble. One nice feature on Hollis wings is that the built-in STA is removable if the diver prefers to use a metal one.

 

[stuartv]

I haven't seen that one. Edit: meaning: I haven't seen that in the comments on DRiS site.

Right in the product description. It says:

Must be used with a Single Tank adapter and hardware for the best in roll control

That's why I said it looks like the Trianta might be the same as the DGX/DR wing as far as using it without an STA and possibly having the tank slip off the BP center channel.

despite what another poster might be trying to claim, it is always water pressure that collapses the wing, regardless of which vent you use.

What "another poster" said was that water pressure does not push the air out. Obviously, once the air leaves the wing, water pressure collapses the wing - otherwise there would be a vacuum inside the wing (and, technically, it's that vacuum that pulls the wing in, not water pressure pushing it - there could be no water pressure at all and the air leaving the wing would still create a vacuum that draws the wing in). As the "other" poster said, if water pressure pushed the air out, then you could be head up, open your butt dump and wait, and the "water pressure" would "push all the air out completely out of the wing.

If I remember you have a DSS LCD 30 wing which is one of the narrowest on the market, it does not taco.

Yes, I have an LCD 30. I thought this looked like tacoing. No?

 

[dmaziuk]

Right in the product description. It says: Must be used with a Single Tank adapter and hardware for the best in roll control

You're right, it does. Interesting because the wing in the picture doesn't have camband slots, it only has grommeted boltholes for attaching the STA. Which is why I really fail to see how "roll control" fits in that sentence: must be used with a Single Tank Adapter and hardware because how else would you attach the cylinder to the backplate?

 

[halocline]

What "another poster" said was that water pressure does not push the air out. Obviously, once the air leaves the wing, water pressure collapses the wing - otherwise there would be a vacuum inside the wing (and, technically, it's that vacuum that pulls the wing in, not water pressure pushing it - there could be no water pressure at all and the air leaving the wing would still create a vacuum that draws the wing in). As the "other" poster said, if water pressure pushed the air out, then you could be head up, open your butt dump and wait, and the "water pressure" would "push all the air out completely out of the wing.

You are wrong if you think there's any sort of vacuum at work. It's really very simple; any air in the bladder is under the same pressure as the water on the outside of the wing. This is always the case while the wing is underwater, whether it's mostly full, empty, or halfway in between, with one exception, that's if the wing is completely filled to capacity and the OPV doesn't release, there could be slightly higher pressure inside the wing than outside it because the fully taut fabric acts like a rigid container. But otherwise, because the wing is a flexible membrane, pressure on both sides will equalize. When you vent the wing, you open a passage for the air inside the wing to escape upwards, and the water pressure pushes it completely out. This would not happen on land, air would remain in the wing at the same pressure as ambient, other than any residual "memory" or stiffness of the fabric. This is why you have to squeeze or roll a wing on land to get all the air out. The only time air escapes from a wing on land is when someone fills it to higher-than-ambient pressure. I'm sure you're smart enough to understand all this.

What I think you're trying to explain is why the air won't all vent out if you open a dump valve on the lower part of the wing, like the hip valve when you're in a vertical, head up position. That's simply because air is buoyant under water, which means water pressure is always pushing the air to the surface. It does this regardless if the air is trapped in a bladder or out in open water. This is exactly why air in the bladder provides lift. There's no 'vacuum' involved with any of it. The more air that is pumped into the wing, the greater volume, and therefore weight, of water pushing it towards the surface exists. This is the concept of displacement. It should have been discussed somewhat in your OW class, which I believe was not that long ago.

 

[ams511]

Yes, I have an LCD 30. I thought this looked like tacoing. No?

Most wings will do that, especially wings with a flexible bladder and shell. There does not need to be any air in the wing as the bladder will float in the water. Wings with stiffer shells do it a bit less. The UTD wing has tabs to attach to the waist belt of the harness to hold the wing down.

Your original assertion is that a smaller wing will alleviate this problem. However if you go to the DSS and look at the photos for the LCD 20 and 30 you will see that the main difference is in the length not width, so a smaller wing would not help.

For reasons I will not get into here I never dove my LCD 30 but I have dove my LCD 20 and it is not significantly different than my Halcyon 30.