Non professional divers taking very young children diving (even in a pool)

[tstormdiver]

Guy walks in a dive shop, wants to share his love of the water with his grandkids, as so many of us did when we "learned" to dive. Dive shop employee (following the rules of the shop, agency, and insurance company) tells gramps that he will kill his kids, and they won't sell him a reg, won't fix his old one, and won't rent him a tank. BOOM!! Gramps walks out all PO'd and goes out and buys a $45,000 bass boat. We've lost a certified diver forever, and 3 potentials because of our modern attitude to scuba.

An alternative might be to fix grandads reg (if possible), or sell him a new one. While doing this, tell gramps that he can have 10% off snorkel gear if he brings the kids in for snorkeling lessons. CHA-CHING!! We've sold a grand worth of gear, made gramps a loyal customer for life, and gotten the kids in the water in a manner that satisfies our love of liability and agency requirements.

I don't think Tammy and the other kids at the dive shop did anything wrong. They acted exactly as our training agencies, insurance companies, and in accordance with what every instructor since 1995 has been taught. I just think that there might be an alternative that doesn't have folks throwing away their scuba equipment in disgust.

So you would advocate putting a child as young as 5 yr old on scuba? I totally get the part of wanting to share the experience,.... but why not hire an instructor for a short time to do it for the kids when they are old enough? Is saving $25, $50, $100 & waiting a couple/ few years, worth a child's life? As for the liability part, how much paperwork does your live aboard customers have to fill out? Why? What kinds of rules does your business put on the divers controlling aspects of their dives? Why? Do you let someone with sidemounted doubles do technical level dives, even though they have no proof that they are at that level (certification)? But, hey, they are "experienced". Let's face it, it is a litigious society we live in. If we had repaired the regulator (which we could not) & rented the tank to him knowing what he planned to do with it & say the 5 yr old freaked out, panicked & bolted to the surface hold their breath, experienced a lung expansion injury,.... wound up in the hospital or worse,.... Who do you think the lawyers hired by the parents will go after? You know the answer well, as a business owner- the deepest pockets involved they can find.

 

[Seya]

You can't buy a gun without a gun license. But you can show your kids how to shoot one safely without them getting a license and taking a course. I think you guys are over reacting to some supervised fun in a shallow home pool.

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[RJP]

You can't buy a gun without a gun license. But you can show your kids how to shoot one safely without them getting a license and taking a course. I think you guys are over reacting to some supervised fun in a shallow home pool.

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As I heard someone say once "My town requires a pet license if you have a cat... but any idiot can have a kid."

 

[tstormdiver]

You can't buy a gun without a gun license. But you can show your kids how to shoot one safely without them getting a license and taking a course. I think you guys are over reacting to some supervised fun in a shallow home pool.

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Seya, The average shallow home pool is 3- 4 ft deep. Do you realize (though rare) if a person breathing compressed air at those depths bolted to the surface holding their breath, they can experience a lung expansion injury? Yes, even that shallow. Plus we are talking about one of the children being 5 yrs old. Do you know many children that age that would be mature enough to keep calm, keep breathing, even if something suddenly freaked them out?

 

[Seya]

There is lots of YouTube videos of this activity happening but I can't find a single death or injury from this extremely dangerous activity you guys say it is. So if it's so dangerous how come kids aren't dieing weekly from it.

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[Wookie]

So you would advocate putting a child as young as 5 yr old on scuba? I totally get the part of wanting to share the experience,.... but why not hire an instructor for a short time to do it for the kids when they are old enough? Is saving $25, $50, $100 & waiting a couple/ few years, worth a child's life? As for the liability part, how much paperwork does your live aboard customers have to fill out? Why? What kinds of rules does your business put on the divers controlling aspects of their dives? Why? Do you let someone with sidemounted doubles do technical level dives, even though they have no proof that they are at that level (certification)? But, hey, they are "experienced". Let's face it, it is a litigious society we live in. If we had repaired the regulator (which we could not) & rented the tank to him knowing what he planned to do with it & say the 5 yr old freaked out, panicked & bolted to the surface hold their breath, experienced a lung expansion injury,.... wound up in the hospital or worse,.... Who do you think the lawyers hired by the parents will go after? You know the answer well, as a business owner- the deepest pockets involved they can find.

I'm not advocating YOU teaching a child as young as 5 how to dive, but I see no issue with Gramps doing it.

To answer your questions. We do not restrict gear choices. We set limits based on what our insurance company, industry standards, and room on the boat allow. The insurance approves our release, and require it to be properly filled out. They do not dictate what must be in it, but they do approve it, so I guess in a way they do say what must be in it.

We limit recreational trips to 130 feet, no deco, don't run out of air buddy diving unless solo certified. That is the industry standard for an open water card. We do not require a dive computer, although if you don't have one, you must have a depth gage with bottom timer and an understanding of the tables. We do not restrict sidemount, although we do not allow doubles in any configuration on any recreational trip. I don't care if you monkey dive, and I have numerous customers who do not use a SPG or a BCD.

On technical trips, divers must present a c-card for the depth that is appropriate. No, a gear card is not required, and I think that gear cards are the stupidest thing ever invented. I have no drysuit card, no DPV card, no underwater photographer card, no specific doubles card, no underwater hunter card, nor would I ever get one. Do I need an underwater naturalist card to not shoot a fish? I do dive a drysuit, have multiple DPVs, a speargun and a number of cameras. I do not dive sidemount because I think it's a cave cert, but that doesn't mean I stop folks from diving sidemount if they so choose.

We do not allow children. It's a size of lifejacket thing, as well as a depth we typically dive in thing. Aside from that, I don't think OW (real Open Water a hundred miles from land) is appropriate for children. I know lots of kids that young and younger who get in the pool with their parents on scuba.

But I, like you and your shop, have to live within the very narrow confines of what the insurance company and lawyers allow. Do I think you should have sold him a reg? Yup, it's none of your business what he does with it. Do I think you should have rented him a tank? If your business is to rent tanks, then yes. What he does with it is his business, not yours. Do I think you should have let him take his grandkiddies in your pool? Nope, not a chance. That's your business and you are well within your rights to not allow what you want to on your property.

---------- Post added June 16th, 2015 at 01:00 PM ----------

You can't buy a gun without a gun license. But you can show your kids how to shoot one safely without them getting a license and taking a course. I think you guys are over reacting to some supervised fun in a shallow home pool.

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I have multiple weapons, lethal and not. I have no licenses for any of them. I do practice regularly, and took a hunter's safety course in 1972, though, if that makes you feel better.

 

[Storker]

we do not allow doubles in any configuration on any recreational trip.

I know I risk derailing the thread, but why the heck not? It's not as if a doubles set is fundamentally different from a big-a$$ single tank or a pair of tanks in a sidemount rig.

If you were operating on this side of the pond, that policy would reduce your customer base by some 30-40%

 

[Seya]

I know I risk derailing the thread, but why the heck not? It's not as if a doubles set is fundamentally different from a big-a$$ single tank or a pair of tanks in a sidemount rig.

If you were operating on this side of the pond, that policy would reduce your customer base by some 30-40%

Most likely because of not having enough room for the tech gear

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[Wookie]

I know I risk derailing the thread, but why the heck not? It's not as if a doubles set is fundamentally different from a big-a$$ single tank or a pair of tanks in a sidemount rig.

If you were operating on this side of the pond, that policy would reduce your customer base by some 30-40%

Does reduce it here too. It's for room on the boat. There just isn't room for 24 divers with doubles, and which do you allow and which do you restrict. We run doubles trips, but limit the boat to 18, adn allow deco. Those aren't recreational trips.

You don't have that many liveaboards (as we think of them) on your side of the pond, most are day boats.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Seya, The average shallow home pool is 3- 4 ft deep. Do you realize (though rare) if a person breathing compressed air at those depths bolted to the surface holding their breath, they can experience a lung expansion injury? Yes, even that shallow. Plus we are talking about one of the children being 5 yrs old. Do you know many children that age that would be mature enough to keep calm, keep breathing, even if something suddenly freaked them out?

All 4 of my kids were on SCUBA in the shallow end of the pool of my home at that age. You are really sucking the life out of having fun. That said I do not dispute your right to say no to this gentleman - it is your shop your rules...

I still reminisce about the rock fights we used to have as kids - we would hide behind stacked truck tires and throw the biggest rocks we could find against each other. 5 on 5 or 8 on 8 depending on what was going on in the neighborhood. I remember thinking I killed a kid when he stuck his head up and caught one in the forehead - he was knocked unconscious and the blood was something to fear... Turns out I didn't kill him - it was just a flesh wound but about 60 stitches... Yes we stopped playing that round but no we did not stop playing that game just cause one of our friends did not time his popup correctly...

If you want to talk about stupid stuff we did as kids I have lots of stories - but I really think diving in the pool in the shallow end is not one of them...