bp/w advice - OxyCheq, others..

[nowhereman]

I'd like to make a few points on that, I think what you said is very true for you and for a number of divers, possibly overrepresented on somewhere like Scubaboard versus most recreational divers. BP/Ws are becoming more popular and common among people who view diving as a hobby (as opposed to purely a holiday activity) and have a lot going for them. Personally I love them. However it represents a change in the market and the sport and those kind of changes take time to catch on among the institutions involved. Training organisations are slow to adopt any kind of new idea, partly because with groups like PADI or SSI you've got a whole lot of stuff to change and people to buy in to really do it properly (I'm lumping this in with institutional unwillingness to change you always have) and partly for worries over liability if there turn out to be problems with the stuff.

BSAC, at least a couple of years ago when I was part of a club and assistant instructing, did not let people teach with BP/W and long hose for the simple reason that it wasn't what most divers would see and not what they would encounter as well as being seen (the long hose thing) as having potential issues in open water use without the advantages it was originally developed for (the length being necessary in single file cave diving). I can understand a training organisation being unwilling to have multiple techniques being taught at introductory levels rather than having a single base for equipment and techniques that any diver will be familiar with.

The thing is the shops aren't likely to change for the most part as long as training for new divers (majority of sales) is still using stab jackets and 2nd stage with an octopus. I'd also say that the simplicity of a good hog rig is not as easy a sell as many of the more advanced bells and whistles or modern stab jackets. For the shops it's an obvious choice and I think, in all fairness, for many, if not even most, divers it's probably what they're going to stick with. It's like gettin angry at American auto dealers for selling cars with lots of fancy electronic bells and whistles that may not contribute to someone's driving experience at all instead of simpler, more efficient and nicer to drive models. If you're interested and know about it you can get indignant but most people won't ever even know and there are shops that cater to the niche market of knowledgeable and passionate people.

 

[ams511]

The european model is most gear is sold over the internet and "gas only" fill stations provide fills at a cost that reflects their actual costs, not the "loss leader" model many dive shops use for fills. I expect we here will follow suit eventually.

Tobin

I suspect the "American model" is more profitable for manufacturers or else they would have led the charge towards internet sales. Instead they were pulled into the internet age kicking and screaming by Leisurepro.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 07:38 PM ----------

Dive shops will be stuck in this quagmire for ever if they continue down the same road.

I assume people that open/purchase dive shops do so because they like diving. However, just because they like diving doesn't mean they are great businessman or even great divers.

 

[redacted]

Different consumer protection laws produce different business models. As long as USA dive shops insist on being independent (and small), they will be under the mfgr's thumb.

 

[KevinNM]

Different consumer protection laws produce different business models. As long as USA dive shops insist on being independent (and small), they will be under the mfgr's thumb.

I've been in divers direct, it's no different than small dive shops other than not being small and carrying a wider and deeper selection of the same gear. Staff wasn't very good at knowing what they carried, they also had no idea who had keys to what. At least that was how it seemed to me in 2013 when I was trying to buy fins and a dive computer download cable. Fins were easy, they had every size and color, download cable was a problem that took multiple trips to find someone who knew where the damn cable was and had keys to the cabinet.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I suspect the "American model" is more profitable for manufacturers or else they would have led the charge towards internet sales. Instead they were pulled into the internet age kicking and screaming by Leisurepro.

I disagree. All manufactures are trying to navigate the concurrent problems of direct sales while not pissing off their remaining dealers. It's a legacy issue, and we are in transition, but the number of dive shops is decreasing every year.

How does a manufacturer profit by having more hands to feed between them and the end user?

Distributors and resellers at one time "added value" by having local stock, and by providing end users information about the products. The internet now provides the info, centralized warehousing means everything is in stock in one place and available in a day or two.

Not exactly on point but illustrative none the less. We occasionally build special purpose machine tools. Used to be if you wanted to buy most machine automation products like inverters or servo motors or servo motor amplifiers etc. you had to be a recognized installer, with an account at an authorized distributor. Now you find main stream OEM manufactures of these selling them on ebay to anyone.

Scuba is not sufficiently unique to avoid this same collapse of the traditional distribution model.

Tobin

 

[ams511]

Different consumer protection laws produce different business models. As long as USA dive shops insist on being independent (and small), they will be under the mfgr's thumb.

Certainly there is no legal prohibition on the internet sale of dive gear. It was manufacturers restrictions not consumer protection laws that prevented internet sales until recently. When I was certified in the early 90s there were quite a few dive shop chains. Now they seem to have gone out of vogue. Divers Supply has closed all their stores in Florida except for the one on Jax Beach. There were other stores with multiple locations that you probably would not have heard of.

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 11:58 PM ----------

I've been in divers direct, it's no different than small dive shops other than not being small and carrying a wider and deeper selection of the same gear.

I have been to Divers Direct and wasn't that impressed with the store or the prices.

---------- Post added March 11th, 2015 at 12:36 AM ----------

I disagree. All manufactures are trying to navigate the concurrent problems of direct sales while not pissing off their remaining dealers. It's a legacy issue, and we are in transition, but the number of dive shops is decreasing every year.

How does a manufacturer profit by having more hands to feed between them and the end user?

Tobin the way the industry is currently structured the manufacturers are in control because they are larger and can dictate terms to the smaller dive shops. These local shops also provide sales support and do carry inventory allowing the manufacturer to carry less reducing their costs. I disagree on everything being in stock in one place and available in a day or two. I waited over 4 months and never received a HOG SMB because it never came from China. I also wanted a replacement bladder for a wing (different manufacturer) and again it was not in stock.

If manufacturers wanted to they could set up "internet only" brands bypassing existing sales agreements, but we don't see this. The only rational answer is it is more profitable to do it the old way than the new way. Also what does it matter if there is a "Leisurepro" undercutting authorized dealers? The manufacturer still makes the same money on the sale.

An example of market power would be in the supermarket industry, 25 to 30 years ago the supermarket industry was largely dominated by independent stores and regional chains. The manufacturers were largely national and international firms like Kraft, P&G, etc. So the manufacturers were in control. Now the supermarket industry is more consolidated with the regional chains being part of a larger national firm. Now the retailers have the power and are getting concessions out of the manufacturers. Walmart is the worst.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Tobin the way the industry is currently structured the manufacturers are in control because they are larger and can dictate terms to the smaller dive shops.

If this were actually true do you think the manufacturers would have dive shops operate the way most do?

These local shops also provide sales support and do carry inventory allowing the manufacturer to carry less reducing their costs.

Again, not reality. "We can order it for ya" is far to common to suggest most dive shops are effective stocking dealers.

I disagree on everything being in stock in one place and available in a day or two. I waited over 4 months and never received a HOG SMB because it never came from China.

If it's "etherware" i.e. doesn't actually exist it doesn't matter where it's supposedly stocked, but that aside you are making my point. If you look at what appliance companies are doing for replacement parts you'd see on central depot replacing regional depots. Far far cheaper to keep 1-3 items in central depot then to try and them in every one of 7-8 regional service centers. UPS actually runs such "instant" fulfillment centers out their St. Louis hub. Overnight to everywhere is far cheaper than maintaining 7-8 regional depots that often don't have the part, and often aren't all that local anyway.

If manufacturers wanted to they could set up "internet only" brands bypassing existing sales agreements, but we don't see this.

With a market that is awash in goods and too few buyers more brands is hardly the answer. Note for example that Oceanic is currently collapsing Aeris back into Oceanic, News - AERIS Merges With Oceanicand that OMS is effectively gone.

The only rational answer is it is more profitable to do it the old way than the new way.

Again you haven't told me how having more people between the manufacturer and the end user increases profit.

Also what does it matter if there is a "Leisurepro" undercutting authorized dealers? The manufacturer still makes the same money on the sale.

I said nothing about Leisure pro. Leisure Pro is a discount *Reseller* I'm talking about Manufacturer direct.

Tobin

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Scuba is not big enough (and never really has been) to be able to create enough volume to create healthy competition within it's own industry.
That's the core issue. Even during the best of times scuba was marginal enough that shops were barely able to exist even under the old model of "Everybody goes into the dive shop" and there was no internet. If you think about it divers are fairly rare and always have been.
Now, if you look at how saturated the market is with all the new products/companies including all the new ones offering BP/W, all the jackets, all the regs-combos, and the reduction of dive shops, it's razor thin.
The walk-in dive shop is still the first front for the entry level person wanting to be a diver. Without the LDS diving will suffer the loss of most new people getting into the sport.
It's really a catch 22, the LDS with it's overhead and manufacturer overlord vs the internet.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Scuba is not big enough (and never really has been) to be able to create enough volume to create healthy competition within it's own industry.
That's the core issue. Even during the best of times scuba was marginal enough that shops were barely able to exist even under the old model of "Everybody goes into the dive shop" and there was no internet. If you think about it divers are fairly rare and always have been.
Now, if you look at how saturated the market is with all the new products/companies including all the new ones offering BP/W, all the jackets, all the regs-combos, and the reduction of dive shops, it's razor thin.
The walk-in dive shop is still the first front for the entry level person wanting to be a diver. Without the LDS diving will suffer the loss of most new people getting into the sport.
It's really a catch 22, the LDS with it's overhead and manufacturer overlord vs the internet.

Anybody waiting on the renaissance of the LDS to save scuba is kidding themselves, more dive shop close than open each year. A few large dealers in larger Metro Areas, mostly online sales for the rest of the country, independent instructors and club operated fill stations. This won't make everybody happy, but's the new normal.

Tobin

 

[redacted]

Certainly there is no legal prohibition on the internet sale of dive gear. It was manufacturers restrictions not consumer protection laws that prevented internet sales until recently. When I was certified in the early 90s there were quite a few dive shop chains. Now they seem to have gone out of vogue. Divers Supply has closed all their stores in Florida except for the one on Jax Beach. There were other stores with multiple locations that you probably would not have heard of.

True. But consumer protection laws in some countries effectively restrict what controls the manufacturers can exercise over retailers. That is why LP was able to purchase grey market goods from some foreign markets and the mfgrs were unable to stop it. Some also may require that parts be made available to the end consumer.