bp/w advice - OxyCheq, others..

[ams511]

Update, finally found some time to pull the wings apart, the 30lb was seized solid so only the 18 and 40 came apart. Looks like I don't need to eat one my wings which is lucky as I'm not feeling particularly hungry. As you can see from the photos the 40 bladder is considerably bigger than the 18. I'm not surprised given outer dimensions of both. The great Oxycheq mystery is solved. We can all sleep better tonight. Cheers.

View attachment 204317View attachment 204318

Thanks for taking the trouble. It is interesting that the bladder on your 18 is black. From what I remember mine is opaque like the one on your 40 lb. Is there much difference in size between the 40 lb and the 30 lb?

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 03:51 PM ----------

Sorry, I wasn't clear; my wife said Budda's comment could be interpreted as using wrong equipment underwater could "finish" me (for good!)

Purchase a lot of insurance, her next husband will appreciate it.

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 04:21 PM ----------

I used to be an Oxycheq dealer so I know how they are with customere service (me as a dealer). As long as I was buying and had no problems or returns, fine. But as soon as I started having problems with a bunch of lights (I was selling) they were MIA, didn't want to hear it, pretended they weren't getting e-mails, wouldn't own up to the fact that the lights they ordered and had made in China absolutely sucked! Every single one of them failed, some before they even hit the water.

Oxycheq fell into the trap of wanting to be a "full line" dive manufacturer. Their core competency was in BP/W and then brought in lights and regulators. OMS also tried this and failed. As did Abyss and Salvo. I would assume that there was not enough margin in what they were selling to allow for massive returns. Especially if the Chinese OEM would not pay for defective units.

The new wings from UTD and Apeks appear to be made by Oxycheq so maybe they will take on a new life as an OEM. There are very few Oxycheq dealers left.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Thanks for taking the trouble. It is interesting that the bladder on your 18 is black. From what I remember mine is opaque like the one on your 40 lb. Is there much difference in size between the 40 lb and the 30 lb?

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 03:51 PM ----------



Purchase a lot of insurance, her next husband will appreciate it.

---------- Post added March 8th, 2015 at 04:21 PM ----------



Oxycheq fell into the trap of wanting to be a "full line" dive manufacturer. Their core competency was in BP/W and then brought in lights and regulators. OMS also tried this and failed. As did Abyss and Salvo. I would assume that there was not enough margin in what they were selling to allow for massive returns. Especially if the Chinese OEM would not pay for defective units.

The new wings from UTD and Apeks appear to be made by Oxycheq so maybe they will take on a new life as an OEM. There are very few Oxycheq dealers left.

Just a hunch and I really don't know for sure, but I'll bet the Mach V wing and maybe some of their other wings are the only thing really keeping oxycheq afloat (no pun intended).
I don't know what the analyzer market is doing these days but it's probably not busy that's for sure and not enough to keep a company going alone.
I noticed a sharp price increase in their wings recently when everybody else seemed to be stable. That tells me it was an artificial adjustment of some sort to cover something other than wholesale cost or material increases on the wings.
I'm guessing the biggest reason they are no longer dealers anywhere has everything to do with their attitudes.

 

[ams511]

My hunch is that the wing market is over saturated with all the entrants in the field. Just think how many companies are selling wings: Apeks, Scubapro, Hollis (Oceanic), Dive Rite, Halcyon, Hog, Oxycheq, DSS, Light Monkey, DRIS, Golem Gear, UTD, OMS, XDeep, Manta, XS Scuba. I don't think the market is expanding fast enough to support all these companies. Some must be hurting.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

My hunch is that the wing market is over saturated with all the entrants in the field. Just think how many companies are selling wings: Apeks, Scubapro, Hollis (Oceanic), Dive Rite, Halcyon, Hog, Oxycheq, DSS, Light Monkey, DRIS, Golem Gear, UTD, OMS, XDeep, Manta, XS Scuba. I don't think the market is expanding fast enough to support all these companies. Some must be hurting.

Well Aqualung/Apeks as we know has all the other stuff and wings are just an experiment, and is the case with SP - they don't need wings, they are already huge with regs and all their other stuff...they're not going anywhere. As you reported Oxycheq is making the wings for UTD and Apeks. UTD already has a brand with the DIR training and it's followers so I'm sure there is a component of sales associated with that...as is the case with Halcyon who has a very old and staunch supporter customer base regardless of price, some people equate high cost with quality regardless. Hog has a great reputation with the DIY group and has grown steadily through a grass roots beginning on the internet, they are definitely a strong competitor.
DSS is small and I'm sure Tobin has his operation under control, he has his dedicated followers also. He probably has more dealers than Oxycheq now. OMS has been around from the beginning and still has followers, I don't know how relevant they still are, I never hear much anymore.
Dive rite 'ain't going nowhere, been there from the start and move a lot of stuff.
It's all the other small ones that don't really stand for anything that might go out. Some of them are just trinket companies that offer discounted odds and ends and are having wings made by someone since they think that's where the market is going.
For instance Manta, I've seen the wings on a few obscure websites but have never heard any reports and nobody knows anything about them.
The DRIS stuff, they are an online store and happen to have their own brand name on some gear, but I highly doubt they are trying to survive off wing sales. They are selling their units to mostly price conscious shoppers. I know nothing about Light Monkey, Golem Gear, and have heard about XS Scuba but was unaware they had wings.
I can tell you one thing, unless dive shops begin to accept BP/W as a viable alternative to jackets and start carrying them of various brands listed above, and expose the gear to the general walk in public there will be some dropping off. The internet is saturated and only so many people go on the internet to shop. This is a major obstacle right now in the scuba market. As much as we all love the internet and think it's the future, nothing can replace the in person see/touch/feel in-person experience and sales presentation by a qualified salesperson at a physical dive shop.
Until this happens at all dive shops, not just a handful accross the country, will I consider it a victory.

 

[Wijbrandus]

I can tell you one thing, unless dive shops begin to accept BP/W as a viable alternative to jackets and start carrying them of various brands listed above, and expose the gear to the general walk in public there will be some dropping off. The internet is saturated and only so many people go on the internet to shop. This is a major obstacle right now in the scuba market. As much as we all love the internet and think it's the future, nothing can replace the in person see/touch/feel in-person experience and sales presentation by a qualified salesperson at a physical dive shop.
Until this happens at all dive shops, not just a handful accross the country, will I consider it a victory.

My wife is finally ready to dump her old jacket and move over to a BP/W rig. So for gee whiz we walked into two dive shops in our area this weekend, and asked if they had anything available. The very first question out of both shops was, "Are you a tech diver?" No. I use a BP/W for recreational, and have for ten years. She wants to do the same thing now. The very next (rhetorical) question was "OMG why would you do that?"

That attitude really sours me on the usual follow up, which is no, they've got nothing in stock, but I can always order stuff through them for a nice markup.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

My wife is finally ready to dump her old jacket and move over to a BP/W rig. So for gee whiz we walked into two dive shops in our area this weekend, and asked if they had anything available. The very first question out of both shops was, "Are you a tech diver?" No. I use a BP/W for recreational, and have for ten years. She wants to do the same thing now. The very next (rhetorical) question was "OMG why would you do that?"

That attitude really sours me on the usual follow up, which is no, they've got nothing in stock, but I can always order stuff through them for a nice markup.

I always love the line "No we don't have it, but we can order it". Yeah, I can order it too.
It's funny how they poo-poo gear they supposedly don't believe in and want nothing to do with, unless of course they can make money on it then it's OK.
This is why I say it's going to be a cold day in hell when we begin to see all the same gear in stores as we do on the internet.
They'll never give it a chance.

 

[Wijbrandus]

Don't get me wrong. I think there should be a wide diversity in dive gear, and different shops should carry different lines. Not everyone has to carry everything, or even what I want. I'd even be ok with them saying, "we don't carry that because we have found this other line to be more popular." Ok, that's business, I'm good with it, and I support good business choices. I certainly understand that shops don't want to carry items that they consider hard to sell, or even misguidedly see as just "for tech divers".

It's the snarky bit that offends me, and makes me want to go elsewhere. As I was walking away, I overheard one of the sales guys ask the other one, "He wanted a hog rig. Like for a pig. Have you heard of that?" I keep trying not to be offended by it, but that just chaps my ass that they didn't even wait for me to leave before making fun of my questions. Ugh.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Don't get me wrong. I think there should be a wide diversity in dive gear, and different shops should carry different lines. Not everyone has to carry everything, or even what I want. I'd even be ok with them saying, "we don't carry that because we have found this other line to be more popular." Ok, that's business, I'm good with it, and I support good business choices. I certainly understand that shops don't want to carry items that they consider hard to sell, or even misguidedly see as just "for tech divers".

I don't disagree.

Shops carry what offers the largest margins. That's not going to change. Let that settle in. Shops carry goods where the difference between the perceived value and the actual cost is the greatest.

I'm not knocking the shops for doing so. They have overhead, and need to earn a profit, but the fact remains they favor items that "look expensive" but really aren't.


Tobin

---------- Post added March 10th, 2015 at 10:33 AM ----------

Having been an exhibitor at both Trade shows (in theory open only to resellers) and consumer shows (open to the public / end users) I can report that many resellers care little about the features / performance / benefits to the end user of the goods they sell, they are however quite interested on how many "points" they can mark up the goods.

Consumers OTOH want to know all about how the goods will serve them in the water.

It may well be unavoidable, but the manufacturer > reseller > end user model inserts an player between the designer and user that does not have performance and function as their key selection criteria.

I know I'm tarring all with the same brush. There are good resellers, but there remains an inherent conflict of interest.

Tobin

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Dive shops will be stuck in this quagmire for ever if they continue down the same road.
Eventually things change, gear changes, clientelle changes, age groups change, everything changes....eventually.
There are several problems or "sticking points" at play here.
Dive shops want the highest margin on products so they can make the most money....fine, I understand this.
Manufacturers get most of this gear made overseas cheap so there is plenty of margin for everybody to make money. I also believe standard gear is designed and built these days to generate the most profit before the design is considered to benefit the diver.
Manufacturers have great incentive programs offered to stores in the form of overall sales aggregate discounts on their gear, the more they buy then resell the better prices they get so in a way it's kind of a soft trap.
A new diver goes into a store to buy gear and gets set up with all the new gear/bells and whistles. After using said gear for 6 mo they get on scubaboard and read about BP/W. They decide to get a BP/W so they go into their dive shop and get a response like the one above a few post ago.
They end up getting their BP/W on the internet because that's the only source to them, and when they find out how well it works they get all pissed off at the dive shop for not initially selling them one and then begin to lose faith in their dive shop that they don't have their best interests in mind, and/or knowledge about any of the stuff or diving in general.
Even if a dive shop would love to have the customers best interestd in mind, in a way they can't if they subscribe to the aggregate sales discount tactics of the manufacturers. So I almost see that the dive shop is in a way stuck in the middle here.
The one thing that dive shops need to realize is they aren't totally in charge anymore. The sooner they realize this the better off they'll be. Not everybody goes into their local LDS for everything including what's new in the industry and all dive related news and info. There's a 1500 lb monster in the room now called the internet that will eat them alive if they don't figure out how to deal with it and give people what they want.
The thing is many people don't know what it is they want right now, but when they eventually find out what they want, or should have wanted they'll realize it isn't/wasn't what the LDS originaly sold them and that can be very poisonous.
The bottom line is, dive shops need to educate themselves on what exactly people are doing and wanting outside of their little dive shop world. Some have done this as seen here on SB by contributing to the board.
Some owners may have to eat a little crow and admit they don't know it all, they may even have to try out a BP/W unit to see for themselves how they work.

 

[cool_hardware52]

The european model is most gear is sold over the internet and "gas only" fill stations provide fills at a cost that reflects their actual costs, not the "loss leader" model many dive shops use for fills. I expect we here will follow suit eventually.

Tobin