Equipment Trends: The BCD

[KevinNM]

The biggest obsticle to spreading the knowledge are the LDS's which are basically fed and run by Manufacturers. If the manufacturer the LDS is tied in with says "sell this", they sell it. I suppose an LDS could get away from the big names and have a go at being independent and carry what they want but good luck with that.

Not completely true. Its true that they are rarely pushing them, but not that they cannot due the manufacturers they choose. For example, those affiliated with Aqualung could have their instructors wear and feature Apeks BP/W in the store instead of i3 BCDs. But this seems "uncommon".

 

[Rich Keller]

Of course many of us old geezers started diving without the convenience of a BCD (or even a Mae West). I didn't use my first one until 28 years into my diving experience (and that one malfunctioned so I just disconnected the inflator hose). Yes, I see a trend towards more frequent recreational use of BP/W although it is still surpassed by those wearing jacket style BCDs in my area. I own BP/W set-ups but I don't like them for single tank diving so I use my soft harness and wing instead for comfort and security of fit.

I bought a cheap back plate on ebay just to check it out. I was not too impressed and never put it into service. I stayed with a commercial diving harness that is very much like your soft harness but it was not made to be used with a wing. I modified it so I could attach a wing that works out very well for travel.

---------- Post added February 26th, 2015 at 07:02 PM ----------

Not completely true. Its true that they are rarely pushing them, but not that they cannot due the manufacturers they choose. For example, those affiliated with Aqualung could have their instructors wear and feature Apeks BP/W in the store instead of i3 BCDs. But this seems "uncommon".

I do not think the manufactures have much to do with this as most make their own BP/W systems now. It is just simple salesmanship, all you need to do is point out the features and explain the benefits.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Not completely true. Its true that they are rarely pushing them, but not that they cannot due the manufacturers they choose. For example, those affiliated with Aqualung could have their instructors wear and feature Apeks BP/W in the store instead of i3 BCDs. But this seems "uncommon".

There were basically three manufacturers of BP/W when I found out about them, Dive Rite, OMS, and Halcyon.
There might have been a few small time peripheral plate makers in the mix but it was very small and all about tech. Then the tech divers being used to using them and knowing the benefits started using them for their recreational use also. It wasn't long before they really took off for single tank use which spawned the whole development of STA's and then single tank only wings and finally slotted plates and wings. Most people who use BP/W now use them for single tanks.
You could say that BP/W was born on the internet and developed a cult following of sorts. I don't know when the
big boys started to pay attention, but they were very late to the party. By then the pioneer companies had already established themselves as the go-to manufacturers for BP/W.
What I find amusing is all the bashing by dive shops and no action on the part of the main stream manufacturers until they saw there "might" be some money in it and they should probably get in on the action. Their problem is they are too late and what they produce is considered wannabe tech gear and laughed at by the hard core BP/W followers that were there and supported the movement from the beginning. And true to form most of that stuff produced by the mainstrean manufacturers is totally fluffed up for "their" market, again, for sales appeal in the store. It's even funnier when a few shops get in BP/W gear from the major manufacturers and nobody buys it precisely because of that problem; the people who learn about BP/W (on the internet) know what to buy and it 'ain't that! so of course it gets passed over. But here we go again, the dive shops married to their boss carry what they are told, "yes dear", and then when they don't sell they think the whole concept stinks. They just hang on a wall, all alone, never refered to, never used by instructors, never introduced...it's just there in case somebody might want it. Usually only one unit.

It started out that BP/W was stripped down and almost home made looking because something that worked that good didn't need to be fluffed up, it just needed to work better than anything else, and it did.
So even if dive shops decide to get in on the action and start carrying everything BP/W, they would have a tough time now, because most of that phenomenon lives on the internet, plus they're a little late...the best deals are on the net...the best info is on the net...and there is a saturation point that has been reached. But hey, at least they can't bitch that the internet took it away because they never had it and refused to take part in the first place.
One thing about BP/W that goes against sales is that hardly anything ever goes wrong with them and once people get one that's usually the last BC unit they buy.
BP/W are a very consumer friendly product in that respect.

 

[cool_hardware52]

To digress for a moment, this is somewhat understandable when one considers that this is somehow not standard information provided by wetsuit manufacturers so far as I know, it's a bit of a PITA to figure out even if the actual process of 'put suit in water, add lead until it starts to sink' is simple enough, and the actual number can change quite dramatically over time (my 7mm used to be quite buoyant, but after repeatedly taking it on 100m+ dives it's much less fluffy now). It'd be very helpful if more wetsuits came with a "new" and "after X dives at 130'" buoyancy figure for each size/thickness.

I'd want to know the original buoyancy of the suit. The after XX dives isn't really all that important given that any BC needs to be sized for the most buoyant suit. I would expect very few divers to keep buying smaller wings as their wetsuit wears out. In addition a fair percentage of divers will replace a worn out suit with a similar one if they continue to dive in the same areas.

Why don't wet suit brands publish buoyancy info?

Most suits are fabricated by job shops, and there's nobody to test them.

All the various sizes make testing quite a chore.

But most importantly this data isn't gathered or published because most divers have no idea why it matters, having been trained by somebody that based their ballast requirements on some rule of thumb like "10% of your body weight"

Tobin

 

[Omisson]

Hi Dan,
Do you really have to mention GUE in every post? Scuba diving is a recreational sport and I am pretty sure not every diver would want to be looked alike from tip to toes.

Seriously- is that even a question?

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER GUE AHEAD DANGER!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I'd want to know the original buoyancy of the suit. The after XX dives isn't really all that important given that any BC needs to be sized for the most buoyant suit. I would expect very few divers to keep buying smaller wings as their wetsuit wears out. In addition a fair percentage of divers will replace a worn out suit with a similar one if they continue to dive in the same areas.

Why don't wet suit brands publish buoyancy info?

Most suits are fabricated by job shops, and there's nobody to test them.

All the various sizes make testing quite a chore.

But most importantly this data isn't gathered or published because most divers have no idea why it matters, having been trained by somebody that based their ballast requirements on some rule of thumb like "10% of your body weight"

Tobin

I wonder if the issue might be liability. Another issue would be that the buoyancy will be somewhat different for each size of suit, not to mention the thickness. Plus, what you are really concerned about is not the buoyancy, but rather the change in buoyancy at depth. I can imagine that some suit manufacturers might not want to quantify and publicize the fact that their suit crushes more than someone else's does.

The other issue is people mix and match, adding boots, gloves, trapping air, adding a hooded vest etc. So could we just measure the buoyancy of the suit in a mesh bag at the surface, swish around and remove all the bubbles and then ASSUME that the suit loses ALL buoyancy at max, depth and then take a conservative approach? Add in the total weight of air in your tanks and then any additional safety factor or contingency and come up with a wing size estimate? It does not sound that hard to me.

 

[drrich2]

You could say that BP/W was born on the internet and developed a cult following of sorts.

That could be a problem with mass adoption in some areas, when I piece together various pieces from this thread.

1.) People often adopt what they are initially exposed to; usually that's jackets.

2.) People often persist in using what they already know; usually jackets.

3.) Many people buy their own gear, often fairly early on in diving; including a jacket BCD.

4.) Many people don't live close to a LDS that sells & customizes the webbing, walks divers through the options (e.g.: aluminum vs. steel, bare plate vs. transpac if I understand the difference correctly, cinchable webbing vs. not?, attachable integrated weight pockets, different wing capacities, armored or unarmored wings, etc... (I spent a little time on Dive Gear Express's website running myself nuts reading about this stuff). Fine if you live in southern Florida or coastal California maybe? What about the inland folks?

5.) Some of this stuff could be handled with online questioning, but unlike a jacket, once the BP/W setup shows up, even if I get it pre-configured (and as one of the 'unhandy, untechnical' folks, I definitely would), if there's any fine-tuning/fitting/fussing with the thing to be done, I'm gonna mess it up.

6.) Some people prefer to rent gear on vacation; that's probably going to be a jacket.

Seems like a jacket is easier to shop for, and put on 'off the shelf.' The ultimate end product after you've been using it awhile may be inferior, if the reports of some on the forum are to be believed, but for the non-technical diver who's not pushing the edges of performance, it's a jump for the mainstream rec. diver already owning & familiar with a jacket that's in fine shape to toss it & order a BP/W sight-unseen off the internet.

What I'd like to see is a movement toward shops/vendors with local quarry or other good shore dive access offer group 'try out' classes, where you show up, they show you a range of options, put a system together and you dive it to try it. It would be fine to charge a course fee, or just gear rental for the day. I'm not talking about a certification course; just help deciding on a setup, and custom-fitting it. Then, as an added value hook, offer to apply the rental fee they already paid toward the system they just dove and are interested in.

Quite a number of the forum's more accomplished divers use BP/W setups. How much of a difference does it make for the much less accomplished, newbie divers? Or just mainstream vacation divers?

Especially in light of what Bob DBF posted in response to my earlier post (this is only part of his post):

I think the sale of BP/W by telling a diver it will give them better trim is just jumping on the marketing bulls**t bandwagon. Someone who has bad trim either does not care about trim or has no clue about trim at all. I have seen great trim from divers using a BP/W, back inflate, jacket, horsecollar, and no BC at all. It is not the equipment that makes a good diver.

If that's true, why would the average vacation diver go to the hassle to figure out what system to get & buy it?

Richard.

 

[cool_hardware52]

I wonder if the issue might be liability.

Dream on. Most wetsuits are sold by marketing companies who pick out the colors and graphics. The suits are fabricated by job shops. Sent to warehouses operated by 3rd parties for fulfillment. Shipped to retailers without the marketing company ever touching the goods.

With the exception of dive computer manufacturers, insurance companies don't really care too much about *what* OEM's design, or produce and sell.

Tobin

 

[gcarter]

Quite a number of the forum's more accomplished divers use BP/W setups. How much of a difference does it make for the much less accomplished, newbie divers? Or just mainstream vacation divers?

Especially in light of what Bob DBF posted in response to my earlier post (this is only part of his post):

I think the sale of BP/W by telling a diver it will give them better trim is just jumping on the marketing bulls**t bandwagon. Someone who has bad trim either does not care about trim or has no clue about trim at all. I have seen great trim from divers using a BP/W, back inflate, jacket, horsecollar, and no BC at all. It is not the equipment that makes a good diver.
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While that is true on its face, it ignores the fact that some of us care about trim, have a clue about trim, and in spite of the fact that equipment does not magically impart skills, it certainly can have either a positive or a negative impact on the expression of the individuals skills.

I confess to not being the prettiest in the water; I struggled with my trim through 120 dives in my back inflate, moving weight around, just could not seem to dial it in. My son has had a lot of fun at my expense I am far from what you would call a "natural".

Dive 122 was my first in a BP/W. 2 lbs less right off the bat, BCD buoyancy (unnecessary padding) eliminated. Another 6 spread evenly across the torso. It immediately made a big difference for my trim. Did I magically get better just by the using? No. But the weight distribution made the issue smaller and easier for me to deal with. 55 dives on the BP/W and I certainly am much improved.

No, it will not substitute for skills. It does, IMO, make trim and buoyancy control skills easier to acquire through lower weight requirements and better weight distribution. I am still not where I want to be, but as a tool, it is my opinion that a BP/W fosters better / quicker acquisition of these skills than a BCD.

This has been my experience, N=1.

 

[drrich2]

Good to hear. What I was trying to convey was the thrust of why I don't think BP/W market share has grown as fast as some would've expected or many would've liked. I don't mean to come off that they don't offer value; just that the value proposition isn't clear to much of the potential BCD-seeking/using market, and even if you make the case for it, the road to get there (e.g.: modular gear selection, assembly & tweaking) looks far from straight, clear & short.

I'm thinking in terms of some discussions we've had on some of the threads about marketing & scuba. In those, a big issue is identifying your target audience to market to. Since much of the diving public consists of occasional vacation divers and other 'dabblers,' at some point we must ask how much of the diving public are potential candidates for BP/W.

Put another way, if you personally were going to try to 'sell' (literally or figuratively) BP/W, having limited resources and wanting best return on investment, who would you target?

Richard.