Equipment Trends: The BCD

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Thanks, I think :)

Totally meant as a compliment!

I have seen you harp about freedive fins for a long time so the last pair of fins I bought were not true freedive fins but are a longer version of regular dive fins by several inches. They are made by Mares. Absolutely the best fins I have ever owned. Next pair may very well be true freediving fins.
 
I have three pairs of fins. Turtles (that I never use) Jets that get a lot of use, and Picasso Black Team freediving fins, also get a lot of use.
The Picasso's are full foot but I use them with neoprene socks so I got a size big to allow for the thickness of the socks.
I make my own socks now. The last pair I made I cut up an old 1/4" Rubatex G231 suit that someone gave me and those are the best socks I ever made. I have patterns for all the pieces in a folder I keep.
In order to be effective with freedive fins it's advantageous to use a minimalist setup to reduce drag. Due to the speeds achievable with freediving fins any sort of gear that sticks out or causes turbulence will hamper the slipstream and exponentially make finning harder the faster you go. This why many who use freedive fins choose to dive with no BC because you'd be amazed at how much drag even a narrow wing can cause at higher speeds, and a poodle jacket is the absolute worst with drag.
Of course all the rest of the gear is minimized and tucked away as neatly as possible. Southern California Lobster divers are the ones who really turned me on to no BC diving and purist minimalism. There's a special club in Socal that has only veteran hunters types and during bug season you'd be hard pressed to find a jacket on board. The boat crew lets them dive anyway they want, that's part of the reason I love Socal dive boats so much, because they don't baby sit you and you can do whatever you want. To date I've never heard of one of those no BC divers dying, but I have heard plenty of stories of full gear divers dying.
 
The first surface floatation device (horse collar) wasn't actually a BC because it was only intended to be used in an emergency at the surface to float a diver face up by pulling a string/lever that released CO2. This was something that was adopted from the military (Navy).
Then by evolution that device (or similar) became more developed to be "user friendly" by recreational gear companies and began to be used underwater as a BC. Then someone eventually had the brilliant idea to move it to the back.

The BC was an evolution. First, it was used as a safety device and then I am sure someone found out that you could inflate it at depth to keep you off the bottom. Then power inflators and OPVs were added. However a horse collar would still float an unconscious diver face up on the surface. A stab jacket would do the same. A back-mounted wing would not. Now it seems people have back peddled and said surface flotation is not needed. A diver in a wetsuit is buoyant but the wetsuit is not guaranteed to float him face up.

I understand weighting and know that to be neutral at the end of the dive you have to be negative at the beginning. What if you have problems at the beginning of the dive? If you dive a balanced rig then you should be able to swim it up or at worst drop weight. However, how many divers have heard of balanced rigs? Probably a minority of divers. What if you get a major dry suit flood? What happens then? For the vast majority of divers a BC is a safety device.

As far as training goes I see no point having students swim laps with a tank on their back. Do you think they are going to keep doing that to maintain fitness? As far as training as a free diver first it would depend on how many skills transfer over. As far as I know the Army does not train helicopter pilots by first training them to fly fixed-wing aircraft. The Air Force uses trained pilots to fly their drones yet they have a worse safety record than the CIA that uses non-pilots. It would probably make more sense to spend the extra time evaluating the trim and weighting of individual students and teaching better kicking techniques.
 
If you have to err on one side or the other...why not be neutral when you jump in, or even a bit light, and then on coming up from the bottom at dive end, why not plan on having your fins higher up than your head, so you can swim downward and maintain your slow ascent rate and a stop? It's not like that it is hard to do this, and you eliminate the "struggling diver" problem, of someone too weak to fight the weight of their gear in the water.
 
The BC was an evolution. First, it was used as a safety device and then I am sure someone found out that you could inflate it at depth to keep you off the bottom. Then power inflators and OPVs were added. However a horse collar would still float an unconscious diver face up on the surface. A stab jacket would do the same. A back-mounted wing would not. Now it seems people have back peddled and said surface flotation is not needed. A diver in a wetsuit is buoyant but the wetsuit is not guaranteed to float him face up.

I understand weighting and know that to be neutral at the end of the dive you have to be negative at the beginning. What if you have problems at the beginning of the dive? If you dive a balanced rig then you should be able to swim it up or at worst drop weight. However, how many divers have heard of balanced rigs? Probably a minority of divers. What if you get a major dry suit flood? What happens then? For the vast majority of divers a BC is a safety device.

As far as training goes I see no point having students swim laps with a tank on their back. Do you think they are going to keep doing that to maintain fitness? As far as training as a free diver first it would depend on how many skills transfer over. As far as I know the Army does not train helicopter pilots by first training them to fly fixed-wing aircraft. The Air Force uses trained pilots to fly their drones yet they have a worse safety record than the CIA that uses non-pilots. It would probably make more sense to spend the extra time evaluating the trim and weighting of individual students and teaching better kicking techniques.
I think you're taking too much of this out of context.
The point I try to make is there is way too much dependability placed on BC these days. With the size of some of these air cells and the way some or maybe most students are trained, the lift and ability to float an overweighted diver on the surface is taken to an extreme without the student ever knowing how dangerous that can be.
When I dive with or without a wing my surface condition (weighting, buoyancy) is the exact same. Where I dive with the suits I use I can float on the surface with no air in the wing (meaning also no wing) with a full tank. Many people can do this. I have attached the link to the Socal backpack divers group many times shwing many people doing this. This is how they used to do years ago and did all the same recreational dives we do these days. In fact, the first Doria dives were done by divers in wetsuits with no BC's and twinsets using double hose regulators.
One of them happened to be a woman BTW.
I'm not advocating that everybody dive with no BC, the point is if people can easily stay alive and floating on the surface with no BC then why are people dying on the surface with BC's?

I don't use a balanced rig, I don't believe in them. I don't use drysuits, I don't like them, therefore I will never have a catastrophic failure or a flood. I dive wet, and I make sure with whatever wetsuit I'm wearing that day that I am weighted properly and have a few lbs to dump, usually the amount of lift the suit will lose at the deepest depth I plan to go which isn't that deep these days. Total amount of weight used including plate tank etc. = being able to stop at 15' at the end of the dive with no air in the BC and hold the stop with breath control alone. Anybody can learn to do this if they want. To circle this all the way around from where we started, ...For me this means that I can float on the surface at the beginning of the dive with a full tank...
Regardless, I would never weight myself to the point where I would drop like a brick as soon as air is let out of my BC. I don't weight myself like that when I freedive and I don't when I scuba dive.
Being that I was a freediver prior to scuba diving, I learned to descend doing the pike and tip forward head first and swim down. That training carried over into my scubadiving and I do the same thing. I use many of the same techniques the difference being that I can breathe underwater, but all or most of my body hydrodynamics are very freediver-esque.

The swimming with a steel 72 on the back, yeah I know a guy who did that (true story). Don't be confused though or take it too literally, I didn't mean that should be something done these days, that was just an example of how tough they had it and how easy it is now in comparison. I would never expect somebody to be able to do that now.
Just like no BC diving and how it is now. Sometimes I like to point out history to bring to light how rediculous some things have become when they didn't even have some of those things in the past to cause such troubles. Sometimes things are invented to make life easier, but they cause bigger problems later. I think a BC is a good example.
I use a BC, but I also can go with out one. I know it's a luxury, what it's supposed to be used for, and what it isn't supposed to be used for.
 
I think part of the reason that BPW are less common is it is more complicated to buy.

Dive training today is designed to convince the newbie that they are not capable of selecting their own equipment, "Don't buy any gear until after the gear lecture!"

It would be really nice if there LDS sites had a configurator that would walk you through selecting all of the parts and suggest some bells and whistles while explaining on why you would get one over the other. From harness to tanks. For example a new diver may be more comfortable with adding dump able weight pockets and doing an AL plate and AL tanks so they have dump able in an emergency were a highly trained may choose the SS plate and ST tanks and no dump able weight.

I spend a fair portion of every day making recommendations regarding BP&W's for divers based on their specific application. Given the near total lack of education concerning buoyancy and weighting, and how that impacts the selection of plate material and wing capacity I have serious doubts that some sort of online configurator would be of much use. The key input for selecting the right plate material and wing capacity is the buoyancy of the divers exposure suit. Maybe 1 in 40 divers I speak with know what the buoyancy of their suit is, close to zero understand how that impacts wing capacity. It's not uncommon for divers to have no idea what type of tanks they have been renting. Tank type can also impact the choice in plate type. None of this is rocket science, but unless a diver has some basic information (suit buoyancy, tank type etc.) and a basic understanding of why this matters automated configurators will just be garbage in, garbage out.

I get some requests for some really whacky combinations of plates, plate material and wing capacity….:)

Tobin
 
I think you're taking too much of this out of context.

So are you. Diving is a business and the equipment manufacturers and the training agencies are in a partnership. The more divers the better and the more they buy the better. Proper weighting is limited to fin pivots or floating on the surface with you eyes level with the water and sinking when exhaling. Most students, myself included don't have a clue about proper lift. You buy the BC that looks cool or has the pretty colors or in my case cheap. You don't worry about lift because most BCs have more than you ever need.

We can talk about the good old days how Mike Nelson and Jacques Cousteau didn't wear a BC but they also did not have a safe second or even an SPG. You want to go back to that too? The BC, the Octo, and the SPG all solve a problem and add to safety. The problem is not with the BC but with the training. Forget about BCs, what about those 100 lb lift wings that were sold 10 -15 years ago. They were not marketed to newbies but rather experienced technical divers. Hell some divers wore two in case one broke. You comment about people with no BCs living and those without dying is a red herring. In research we would say you have a correlated omitted variable problem. The omitted variable is experience. Most new or infrequent divers are not diving without a BC. Also how many deaths are due to BC problems? I would think very few. As to holding a stop by breathing, point that out in the manual. Students are taught to breath deeply and regularly. First, rule of scuba is never hold your breath. As far as making students swim with a tank on their back, that was stupid then and now. There is no skill to be learned swimming with a tank on your bank, why waste class time? If it is any consolation, my pet peeve is dive computers. It p*ss*s me off to hear people say the first piece of equipment you should buy is a dive computer.
 
So are you. Diving is a business and the equipment manufacturers and the training agencies are in a partnership. The more divers the better and the more they buy the better. Proper weighting is limited to fin pivots or floating on the surface with you eyes level with the water and sinking when exhaling. Most students, myself included don't have a clue about proper lift. You buy the BC that looks cool or has the pretty colors or in my case cheap. You don't worry about lift because most BCs have more than you ever need.

We can talk about the good old days how Mike Nelson and Jacques Cousteau didn't wear a BC but they also did not have a safe second or even an SPG. You want to go back to that too? The BC, the Octo, and the SPG all solve a problem and add to safety. The problem is not with the BC but with the training. Forget about BCs, what about those 100 lb lift wings that were sold 10 -15 years ago. They were not marketed to newbies but rather experienced technical divers. Hell some divers wore two in case one broke. You comment about people with no BCs living and those without dying is a red herring. In research we would say you have a correlated omitted variable problem. The omitted variable is experience. Most new or infrequent divers are not diving without a BC. Also how many deaths are due to BC problems? I would think very few. As to holding a stop by breathing, point that out in the manual. Students are taught to breath deeply and regularly. First, rule of scuba is never hold your breath. As far as making students swim with a tank on their back, that was stupid then and now. There is no skill to be learned swimming with a tank on your bank, why waste class time? If it is any consolation, my pet peeve is dive computers. It p*ss*s me off to hear people say the first piece of equipment you should buy is a dive computer.
For most of your response I'm not going to comment, this is beggining to circle and I don't have time for it. I can say that the things I'm obsessed with doesn't mean anybody else is. I'm a minimalist - a modern minimalist using modern gear and modern techniques.
I even designed and marketed a plate that reflects my obsession with this school of diving.
I'm also a fitness freak and look at any sort of activity that will make my diving easier, safer, and more fun through nutrition and excercise.
The NAUI class at Sonoma State University uses 15' empty BC hold a stop theory as an official part of their teachings. They are the only ones as far as I know. The rest is just internet lore...use it or don't, it's up to you.
The computer, yes there have been many bloody internet fist fights over tables vs computers. On that I personally don't care because I do both.
The reason new students are told to get a computer first is because (A) they don't teach tables anymore, and (B) if they rent them then they can't download their info or get used to using one style depending on how many places they rent from.
If they were shopping around then I would say rent them to see what they like but computed dive logs are maybe one of the most personal pieces of dive info. Your computer now logs all your info and dives and goes where you go regardless of any other equipment used, that's why they say buy it first.

Have a great day!

Out...
 
Anybody know if you can use only one cam band on backplates? All of the one's I see have two cam band slots. I like to rig a pony to my tank; so I don't want two cam bands in my way. No I don't want to sling my pony.
 
Anybody know if you can use only one cam band on backplates? All of the one's I see have two cam band slots. I like to rig a pony to my tank; so I don't want two cam bands in my way. No I don't want to sling my pony.
A buddy just tried that and it didn't work well. Use a TigerGear pony mount that runs one of your straps through instead of mounting right to the tank. DRIS has them.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom