Negative entry vs Using a downline

[DaleC]

This paragraph is internally inconsistent. Divers need to learn a variety of setups because rental gear is not standardized, but the DIR system should be abandoned in those settings because it is non-standard?

I know that the sentence was a bit OTT but I was responding to J's idea that standardization was uber important or that using alternative equipment was somehow more complex for non dir divers. I myself use a hog rig sometimes and like it for its benefits and also appreciate GUE/UTD/DIR for their benefits as well.

In that vein, if one wants to argue that standardization is paramount, even at the rec level, then the HOG rig should be replaced with something that is more understandable by most rec divers. Do I really advocate that? No. The fact that DIR divers can dive in the recreational setting along side others just shows that, at that level, standardization is not as important a principle as it is in more technical areas.

FWIW, I find the variation and unpredictability of rec diving to be disconcerting myself, but rather than moving to the team concept - which I cannot always rely on if I want to dive with a variety of divers or certain scenarios - I have chosen the self reliant model. And, as much as dir gets kicked around, so does that. It is misunderstood and misrepresented all the time.

To keep this post thread compliant, I would say to do negative entries you need to have your sh-t together as a mistake in kitting up may bite you before you can address it. Downlines at least give a sober second chance to recognize and redress. I also prefer a downline if descending in continuous low vis as the bottom can smack you before you see it. As for 50' lines on 100' dives - They are doing that up here to dive sponge biohermes. It is found that dropping an anchor damages the structures but current requires a line to descend down, thus a weighted hanging downline.

---------- Post added April 9th, 2014 at 04:58 PM ----------

I mean, what ever happened to good ol bar fights...

Ah... I volunteered for so many bra fights before I had my dyslexia taken care of.

 

[Colliam7]

Dale, I think I am in general agreement with your views of the world. I say this to characterize my personal biases, for the benefit of others, not to curry favor. But, I do have a couple of questions / comments.

In that vein, if one wants to argue that standardization is paramount, even at the rec level, then the HOG rig should be replaced with something that is more understandable by most rec divers. Do I really advocate that? No.

What, from YOUR perspective, is 'not understandable by most rec divers.' Not disagreeing, just trying to better understand.

I would say to do negative entries you need to have your sh-t together as a mistake in kitting up may bite you before you can address it.

An interesting, and valid point. Obviously, a counter argument would be that the diver should actually get their sh-t together BEFORE the entry. But, your point makes good sense. Ultimately, we do want to protect some divers from their own mistakes. It is in our collective best interests.

 

[Centrals]

That reaction happened a long, long time ago. That is why ScubaBoard has two DIR forums in which you are not allowed to be critical of DIR.

And vice versa!
That would be FAIR!!!

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 08:45 AM ----------

Now I think it has gone full circle, with non-DIR's attacking DIR, and dog-pilling.

Taste of your own medicine, any bitterness?

I ought to give SM a try because nobody will be mentioning that three little words!!

 

[boulderjohn]

So what does that backplate weigh? Wouldn't it make sense to have a few, one for lighter diving, one for when you need more weight?

It does make sense. That's why backplates come in a variety of materials and weights. The lightest that I know of are made of a Kydex, and they are as close to weightless as you can get in that size. Next we have aluminum--still very light. Steel backplates come in a variety of weights, depending upon the gauge of the steel. Most are around 6-7 pounds. I once saw someone with an 11 pound ss backplate--designed for times when a lot of weight is desired.

Personally, I own an aluminum backplate and a 6.5 pound steel backplate, and I choose the one I want based upon circumstances. I also have different sized wings for that same reason.

 

[AfterDark]

/

Interesting to know GUE standard on SM in the future.
I hope it is not the "H" again!

I guess there's no standards for solo diving either a team of one. Makes it easy. I know what I brought, where I put it, what I'm going to use it for and when. Gas calculations made easy too how much gas do I need. Been working for me longer than GUE or DIR has been around.

 

[T.C.]

Personally, I own an aluminum backplate and a 6.5 pound steel backplate, and I choose the one I want based upon circumstances. I also have different sized wings for that same reason.

So how fast to unweave all your rings, pockets, pouches and straps and re-weave them to a new backplate...or do you just spend the money and duplicate your harness?

 

[boulderjohn]

So how fast to unweave all your rings, pockets, pouches and straps and re-weave them to a new backplate...or do you just spend the money and duplicate your harness?

You duplicate the harness. It's only a few bucks for a harness and hardware.

 

[PfcAJ]

So what does that backplate weigh? Wouldn't it make sense to have a few, one for lighter diving, one for when you need more weight?

It might for some people. I'm pretty neutral in the water without a wetsuit, so my 6lb plate offsets the positive buoyancy of an al80 pretty well. When I dive with a thick undergarment with steel 104s I often add an 8lb v-weight, actually. For me, I don't see a lot of value in owning an aluminum plate so I sold mine about 5 years ago.

doesn't take much to master a weapon. I've shot sub-MOA groups with a Australian sniper rifle at 1200 yards within three shots of picking it up. It's because the principle of shooting remain the same, no matter which weapon I handle, from a M9 to a M256A1. That said; I'm sorry for the collection of military stories; reviewing my posts it wasn't my intent to make it that way.

So you picked it up and shot it well. Ok. We have different definitions of 'master'. I can pick up any set of scuba gear and dive it well, but I won't even begin to pretend that I know 100% without looking everything about it, much the same as I doubt you knew 100% everything about that particular weapon system. Lets play a game. Would you rather have a stoppage on a system you're intimately familiar with or a stoppage on a weapon where its your 1st time picking it up? To spice it up, lets make it a two-way range. Having been in a few brown-pants situations both in-water and in the military, I'd pick the 'intimately familiar' choice every single time.

That said, to rephrase what DaleC said, if you were diving with a rec. diver and had an emergency, would the intensely drilled DIR skills be as useful? Would your first reaction be to get the 2nd stage from his mouth, instead of the one clipped to his lower right side?There is something to be said for adaptability and the retention of the basic skills of diving. The DIR system works well in the environment for which it was designed, but is merely average in an setting like a typical rec. dive.

You forget the idea of a DIR team. The teammate is configured the same way as you are. Otherwise you're just diving a hogarthian config and the real DIR part isn't there. Its more than the gear.

I have to disagree with that. I could add a scooter to just about any dive I can think of. Only thing I'd need is a free spot to clip it to if I shut it down. It doesn't involve a alteration of my gear. What makes you think that a non-DIR setup can't handle a scooter?

Heh. The scooter John's describing isn't something you'd want to hold on to for any length of time. These are designed to be clipped to a crotch d-ring which isn't present on most recreational BCs. You'd have a bad time without that on one of their scooters.

 

[T.C.]

It might for some people. I'm pretty neutral in the water without a wetsuit, so my 6lb plate offsets the positive buoyancy of an al80 pretty well. When I dive with a thick undergarment with steel 104s I often add an 8lb v-weight, actually. For me, I don't see a lot of value in owning an aluminum plate so I sold mine about 5 years ago.

None of this weight is ditchable, correct? Think that may be a problem if a rec. diver attempted a rescue on a DIR diver?

So you picked it up and shot it well. Ok. We have different definitions of 'master'. I can pick up any set of scuba gear and dive it well, but I won't even begin to pretend that I know 100% without looking everything about it, much the same as I doubt you knew 100% everything about that particular weapon system. Lets play a game. Would you rather have a stoppage on a system you're intimately familiar with or a stoppage on a weapon where its your 1st time picking it up?...You forget the idea of a DIR team. The teammate is configured the same way as you are. Otherwise you're just diving a hogarthian config and the real DIR part isn't there. Its more than the gear.

But the principle of a weapon allows me to clear the malfunction without knowing it intimately. All stoppages procedures boil down to a variant of SPORTS; ensure clear ammo feed; unload the malfuctioning round, reload and ensure the bolt closes/cocks, fire.

Knowing the principles allows a quicker action than trying to remember the exact steps for an M2, M240, M9, M4, or the Aussie rifle. I know the principles to be fixed. For a diving rig, you've got the DIR rig mastered. Got it. But does the DIR knowledge give you a strong advantage over the rec. diver who you may assist or have assist you?

I'm not saying it's a bad system. DIR is a good solution for a cave. It works well for other technical dives, but there are other optimized rigs that may accomplish that task well. And in rec. diving, it offers no strong advantages.

Heh. The scooter John's describing isn't something you'd want to hold on to for any length of time. These are designed to be clipped to a crotch d-ring which isn't present on most recreational BCs. You'd have a bad time without that on one of their scooters.

OK...So I clip the tow point to my BCD. I can do that, or set up a tow point on many BCDs without a significant alteration.

I think I'd rather be towed at medium speed through a fairly resistant medium by a snug BCD than a thin piece of webbing ran near a very sensitive area.

 

[PfcAJ]

So a DIR weight concept is what we call a 'balanced rig'. In some configurations you might need ditchable weight, in others not so much. With a single al80 and a thin wetsuit, I don't need any. You might be bigger than me and might need a few lbs. Achieving positive buoyancy is always an easy option because of this concept.

Key points of a balanced rig:
Enough weight to stay down at ~10ft with an empty tank and empty wing
Light enough so you can swim up with a full tank and empty wing. This might involve ditchable weight.

A few weeks ago I did some deep ocean diving. I had a weight belt with some Lbs on it. Its really dependent on what you're wearing (steels vs aluminum, wet vs dry).

Again you're overly focused on the gear and not the team. A DIR diver has a DIR buddy.

Fwiw, the crotch strap is pretty comfy to be towed by, even for hours on end. Much better than your armpits by a BC without one, and I think it would be pretty comical to see what would happen if you clipped of a Suex to a shoulder d-ring and tried to get around. Do you have a lot of scooter dives?