Is guided diving bad for developing skills?

[Centrals]

What about shell collectors?

I know you do from your previous post. But I never actually met one. And the answer would have been NO. Perhaps I ought to edit my last post!!!!
It is illegal to bring certain kind of shells into Hong Kong.
And as far as I know, bringing shells out from some countries could cause a big dent in your pocket.

Leave the shells for others to see!

Take nothing and leave with good memory/bubble.

 

[Tigerman]

Bringing any marine life or remnants of such out of certain countries is not only a risk to your wallet, you might also get an extended vacation in a very low standard room..

 

[geoff w]

This past Saturday my regular weekend dive buddies went out on a boat, but I couldn't because of helping with a private OW pool session in the afternoon and holiday party commitments in the evening. So I invited a couple of friends (both experienced instructors) to dive the beach near my house. They never dived there before, one was the photographer, so the plan was for me to lead, we would drop down in about 15-20 ft, and work our way out to 30-35 ft where the nicer reefs are. I'm not used to leading photographers, so we started off, slowly got past a few small reefs taking pictures along the way, and finally started getting to some bigger structure in about 20 ft. I turned around a minute later, couldn't find them, and after searching for a minute surfaced (viz close in where we were was in the 10-15 ft range at best). After several minutes, I finally located their bubbles, swam over, dropped down on them and continued. The second time this happened, I just gave up and followed them until they burned through their air, then we headed back. It was both frustrating and great. Frustrating because we didn't get out to the better dive areas. Great because they were excellent at spotting things I missed, like an electric ray and a big cabezon. There were plenty of things they missed (nudibranchs), which brings home the point that everyone sees different things in the same area. My point is when we dive with regular buddies, we get used to each other and adjust to work as a team; leading different divers around, even ones way more experienced, poses different challenges for the guy leading the dive, and may not be what the guide wants to be doing in the water either

One point I'm surprised nobody brought up so far is the issue of liability. While the US is highly litigious, many foreign countries frown on losing divers, both for liability and the potential negative impact on tourism. Just because you're the greatest diver at home doesn't mean you are all that great in the local conditions; I've been on vacation dive outings where divers talk like they're so experienced, and when they get in the water their buoyancy and gas management are atrocious. On the flip side, any legitimate dive operator, whether US or overseas, probably has some liability insurance. Insurance companies place all kinds of restrictions on what divers can and can't do, sometimes including going off without a guide, so dive operators are necessarily imposing dive guides to increase their prices or profits

 

[scottishscuba]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for not reading all 7 pages of posts (I got halfway).

I'm a holiday diver, I don't own any of my own kit (apart from a mask and computer). Most of the diving I've done has been guided diving. I'd like to defend myself and my choice to mostly do guided dives. I dive once or twice annually when I go on holiday (and will do a review if necessary). I am happy to be shown a dive site and have things of interest pointed out. (I'm told, in many places, local law says you should have a local DM with you) I do take responsibility for myself and my (and my buddies) safety. I am a relatively inexperienced diver and although I am constantly trying to improve my skills, as a holiday diver, the only option I have is guided diving.

I am lucky enough to have been in the Philippines recently and was astonished watching different groups diving - how differently the different groups interacted and followed the guide.

 

[Evan Soon]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for not reading all 7 pages of posts (I got halfway).

I'm a holiday diver, I don't own any of my own kit (apart from a mask and computer). Most of the diving I've done has been guided diving. I'd like to defend myself and my choice to mostly do guided dives. I dive once or twice annually when I go on holiday (and will do a review if necessary). I am happy to be shown a dive site and have things of interest pointed out. (I'm told, in many places, local law says you should have a local DM with you) I do take responsibility for myself and my (and my buddies) safety. I am a relatively inexperienced diver and although I am constantly trying to improve my skills, as a holiday diver, the only option I have is guided diving.

I am lucky enough to have been in the Philippines recently and was astonished watching different groups diving - how differently the different groups interacted and followed the guide.

I went through half way too.
I am not an experienced diver and have found out that there is always a lot to learn when it comes to diving. I have only had guided dives other than one LOB trip I had which had no guide. The only time we can get non guided dives here in Malaysia is during shore dives or LOB. But I must say I've learned that we should not depend on guides. They are there just to bring you through the terrain that you are not familiar with. Me and my buddies normally just go at our own pace and try to spot things. If the guide is too fast than he has to come back and look for us, and they are never too slow.

I've never plan a dive before but I would always pay close attention to the briefings and would try my best to remember the maps that they draw and the direction we are heading to. I just stick close to my buddy all the time.

 

[markmud]

Firstly I'd like to apologise for not reading all 7 pages of posts (I got halfway).

I'm a holiday diver, I don't own any of my own kit (apart from a mask and computer). Most of the diving I've done has been guided diving. I'd like to defend myself and my choice to mostly do guided dives. I dive once or twice annually when I go on holiday (and will do a review if necessary). I am happy to be shown a dive site and have things of interest pointed out. (I'm told, in many places, local law says you should have a local DM with you) I do take responsibility for myself and my (and my buddies) safety. I am a relatively inexperienced diver and although I am constantly trying to improve my skills, as a holiday diver, the only option I have is guided diving.

I am lucky enough to have been in the Philippines recently and was astonished watching different groups diving - how differently the different groups interacted and followed the guide.

Hey ScottishScuba,

I think your diving choices are great! If you enjoy the holiday diver profile, keep doing it.

Lately, my wife and I have been holiday divers. Work and other issues have dictated this type of diving. We enjoy the heck out of it.

I have dived the cold water of the Pacific, and the warm waters of the Gulf, Atlantic, Caribbean, North Pacific, Eastern Pacific, and South Pacific. Following a guide around has its advantages and its disadvantages as the OP eluded to and I agree with his conclusions.

I have learned many skills from dive staff and also from insta-buddies on unguided trips. Guides have helped me with buoyancy and with a congestion issue I have. One DM taught me how to rig my pony bottle perfectly--IMHO.

Mainly, what I have learned, is that whether diving with a certified pro or an insta-buddy, learn to take care of yourself.

Have redundant gear, learn proper gas management, and be prepared to multi task when things go wrong.

I have seen instructors and DMs do stupid things underwater and I have been deserted by insta-buddies. I have dived with people who could not navigate (unguided diving off California); however, they got back to the boat just fine. Their technique was very simple and foolproof! Some of them did not have compasses.

I am enrolled in an upcoming PADI self-reliant/solo course. I hope to increase my ability to "take care of myself" while underwater.

To conclude:
I enjoy non-guided dives the best. Sometimes those dives have been solo dives (either solo by choice or by SOB diver). Controlling the pace of the dive and poking around in every nook and cranny has its advantages! I love all of it!

I need to do more unguided dives in tropical waters. My skills as a diver have been enhanced the most by solo and unguided diving.

The OP is a good diver because he knows when to say no--in his case saying no to overhead environments. He knows his limitations. I don't do overhead because I have not been trained to do it, either formally or informally. No thanks.

markm

 

[Storker]

It's rather interesting to note how an OP that tries really, really hard to be non-judgmental to other peoples' preferences while still trying to ask a question that has been bugging me for a little, provokes some apparently rather defensive reactions, like:

It is interesting, the question of whether someone should be worried about the dive skills of others. Should my beliefs about diving dictate what another person living at the other side of the Earth should do with their leisure time? If joe blow wants to dive as an occasional tourist on his annual holiday following a dive guide around like a sheep after a bell, I can understand that. [...]

Guided dives are about seeing the good stuff, having fun. Not every certified diver is going to read dive forums or practice drills in the pool all winter. To do so is the choice of an enthusiast. Not every guy with a sports car wants to drive formula one, sometimes they want to just pass a slow truck.

I'd like to defend myself and my choice to mostly do guided dives.

Now I wasn't out to diss people going on guided dives. You don't have to defend your choices to me. As mentioned previously in the thread, I'm a foodie, and I can spend an inordinate amount of time in the kitchen to get things "just right", preferably from scratch. Does that mean I believe that people not sharing my passion are inferior? Nope (although I do think they're missing out on something I find great joy in )

I was honestly asking a question (without intentions of JAQing off) based on my admittedly limited experience with guided dives:

the questions I'm trying to ask: Is my experience typical for resort diving? Is this kind of guided diving bad for the divers themselves? Should - in a nonexistent, idealized world - guides demand more from their customers, or is (figurative) hand-holding good enough? Should resort/vacation divers - in a nonexistent, idealized world - work with themselves and/or the dive operators to develop independent skills, or is just following the guide's instructions good enough?

I really don't know. I know that I wouldn't be comfortable doing only "trust me" dives with a guide taking the lead, but I get the impression that quite a few divers are. Am I right?

And I guess that this post said it better than I was able to:

I think the broader question is: how does any diver go about improving their skills and self sufficiency in a safe manner? And as a guide, divemaster or instructor, how do you encourage this in the people you guide and/or teach?

I got some great answers showing that although my experience wasn't without precedence, it also wasn't indicative of how any and all guided dives necessarily are:

As others have mentioned, just because a dive is guided doesn't prevent you from improving your knowledge and skills, but it's up to your guide to make it so.

(emphasis mine)

So thanks for the perspective, guys. I'll do more extensive research for my next diving vacation, to find a dive op that cater to us grumps who believe we're super divers and don't like to be hand-held and herded during our diving.




PS:

I like the way you describe your course it seems to me you had a very good instructor.

In retrospect, I'd say not too bad. Somewhere around fair to middlin', I'd guess. However, the two addiitonal OW dives is a national requirement due to an agreement between PADI and the Norwegian Diving Association (affiliated to CMAS), and has nothing to with the specific instructor.

 

[Centrals]

...........
So thanks for the perspective, guys. I'll do more extensive research for my next diving vacation, to find a dive op that cater to us grumps who believe we're super divers and don't like to be hand-held and herded during our diving.....

You do need it! Because as I had already mentioned many places(countries) would not let divers to dive unguided. From Maldives right across to PNG.
Queensland(GBR) should be fine with you.

 

[CT-Rich]

I didn't mean to come across as defensive. And to be honest, I have never been on a guided dive (other than diving with a buddy that is more familiar with the area than I am). The point I was trying to make was that there are a spectrum of divers with a spectrum of skills and objectives. guided dives may a requirement for a percentage of dive sites, but it may also be an attractive option for occasional divers that want to enjoy a portion of their holiday doing something exciting with out making it into a test of skill and endurance. Some SCUBAboardians will get somewhat fixated on the skills, and mechanics of diving, just the way car enthusiasts get fixated on car specs and will forget that many people just enjoy a pleasant drive.

From reading this thread I would say the take home message is you really need to research the charters available on a trip so you don't get stuck with something that either doesn't match your comfort level or doesn't feed into the reason for diving in the first place.

 

[markmud]

I didn't mean to come across as defensive. And to be honest, I have never been on a guided dive (other than diving with a buddy that is more familiar with the area than I am). The point I was trying to make was that there are a spectrum of divers with a spectrum of skills and objectives. guided dives may a requirement for a percentage of dive sites, but it may also be an attractive option for occasional divers that want to enjoy a portion of their holiday doing something exciting with out making it into a test of skill and endurance. Some SCUBAboardians will get somewhat fixated on the skills, and mechanics of diving, just the way car enthusiasts get fixated on car specs and will forget that many people just enjoy a pleasant drive.

From reading this thread I would say the take home message is you really need to research the charters available on a trip so you don't get stuck with something that either doesn't match your comfort level or doesn't feed into the reason for diving in the first place.

emphasis added by markm.

Hey CT-Rich,

Your last paragraph nailed it! +1

Your analogy to car enthusiasts is also right-on.

markm