Indecisive and Analytical, Am I ready?

[halocline]

Drawbacks: fewer attachment points, pushes you face-forward on the surface.

No it does not, but thank you for helping along one of the classic fallacies of the dive gear industry. Something was wrong with your set up if you got pushed forward; maybe your weight was in front, maybe you had too much air in the wing, who knows.

As fas the attachment points, you can put as many useless extra D rings as you want on a webbing harness, or you can realize that there's PLENTY of space on the standard 4 D rings for enough crap to make any diver happily loaded down with extra junk.

 

[rhwestfall]

No it does not, but thank you for helping along one of the classic fallacies of the dive gear industry. Something was wrong with your set up if you got pushed forward; maybe your weight was in front, maybe you had too much air in the wing, who knows.

As fas the attachment points, you can put as many useless extra D rings as you want on a webbing harness, or you can realize that there's PLENTY of space on the standard 4 D rings for enough crap to make any diver happily loaded down with extra junk.

but, but, but the dive shop said so........

it would be "funny" to put together a page of "urban legends" relating to scuba.....

 

[ScubaSteve]

No it does not, but thank you for helping along one of the classic fallacies of the dive gear industry. Something was wrong with your set up if you got pushed forward; maybe your weight was in front, maybe you had too much air in the wing, who knows.

Well, the reality is that if you put too much air in your wing, you are likely to be pushed forward (but not to the point that it is that difficult to stay upright). It may be caused by operator error but the fact is the wing is pushing you forward. IMO, people that are looking at BP/W need to know (whether via SB or mentor or shop or whomever) that you do not need to inflate the wing to the point of "blowing out" the OPValve to float on the surface. If you do, then I think there needs to be some further thought put into your weighting and/or wing selection.

 

[gbf]

Actually, I have only 3 d-rings on my dss rig (2 chest, one on left hip) and have plenty of "attachment points" to overload me with stuff (including a stage bottle). And if those are not enough you can use the holes in the edge of the bp to hang a spool/smb and other sundries that are rarely used.

part of the beauty of bp/harness: set it up to suit yourself.

 

[halocline]

Well, the reality is that if you put too much air in your wing, you are likely to be pushed forward (but not to the point that it is that difficult to stay upright). It may be caused by operator error but the fact is the wing is pushing you forward..

I've seen the same thing happen with OW students in jacket BCs where they're overweighted, of course with all the weights in front in integrated weight pockets. Even though there's some air in the front of a jacket BC, most of it will migrate to the back because that's the highest point, especially with all the weight in front and a buoyant AL80 on the back. Another beauty is to see the jacket up around students' ears because there's no crotch strap holding it down. This is common when OW students are wearing too much weight on a belt.

Jacket BCs are just terribly designed in general. I understand that for new divers in class sitting on the surface with lots of unfamiliar and new gear hanging off them, something like a lifejacket with cambands is not a bad idea in principle. But most jacket BCs don't even do that well!

But you're right in that too big an air cell and too much weight in the front will push someone forward if it's over-inflated on the surface. But that's not a BP/W issue; in fact with a steel plate there's some ballast behind the diver counteracting it.

Over and over again, dive shops/PADI instructors/manufacturers et al defend the jacket BC by constructing falsehoods about BP/W set ups.

 

[ScubaSteve]

You will notice I did not defend or attack any set-up. I dive a BP/W. I used to dive a jacket style BC. I loved them both. I simply stated a fact which you denied. If someone comes looking for information, we are better off giving them true information rather than spreading half truths in either direction. I prefer the BP/W however I see people arguing on both sides and saying things that misrepresent the truth. Nobody wins there IMO.

---------- Post added January 3rd, 2013 at 11:23 AM ----------

Actually, I have only 3 d-rings on my dss rig (2 chest, one on left hip) and have plenty of "attachment points" to overload me with stuff (including a stage bottle). And if those are not enough you can use the holes in the edge of the bp to hang a spool/smb and other sundries that are rarely used.

part of the beauty of bp/harness: set it up to suit yourself.

I am able to remove my harness and add as many D-rings as I feel necessary. This is something which is possible with a BP/W but not with jacket style BC's. Obviously you do not want too many but the flexibility is there.

 

[g1138]

One more thing to think about. What is your height?
If you're 5'3" or below you'll want to get a small sized plate, which would mean requiring a STA (unless you go w/ DSS).
Small plates are sold by Halycon, Oxycheq, DiveRite, & DSS. And once again, only DSS small plates are able to be used without requiring an STA.

Honestly, I've found that even if you're 5'4" or 5'5", depending on the length of your torso, you may even benefit from a small plate. Especially if you plan on wearing a weight belt outside your crotch strap. I'm 5'6" w/ a 20in tall torso, and my normal plates ride right on the top of my hip bones. This puts my weight belt and waist strap pretty much on top of each other; an inch shorter and it wouldn't work for me. If I wore my belt outside the crotch strap, it wouldn't work at all.

I have found that plates are shaped differently as well, so some brands may suit you better.
For instance (normal sized plates):
HOG is 15.75" long x 10.25" wide at the base
Halcyon 15.52" x 10.25"
Hollis 15.50" x 10.50"
DR 15.50" x 10.50"
Almost all plates are 9in wide at the top.

In addition, most plates extend anywhere from 1.25" - 2" from your back via the V where the tank sits on. So if you have short arms, the taller the V, the harder it'll be to reach your tank valve, especially if you have an STA.
Manufacturers measure the depth of the V itself, so you'll be adding an inch at most when it sits on your back (because your shoulders hit the edge of the plate which is higher than where the manufacturers' measure.)
HOG uses 2"
Hollis 1.50"
Halcyon 1.50"
DR 1.25"

The reason I go into so much detail is for me, a HOG plate would not work well. I'm between the measurements so to speak, as well as a bunch of other friends who dive with me. It's not going to ruin your dive, but the small details can help make it more enjoyable.

 

[fnfalman]

IF we're going to talk about face forward tendency, then let's talk about the other BPW benefit when overinflated on the surface: you can float nicely on your back and well out of the water.

 

[halocline]

You will notice I did not defend or attack any set-up. I dive a BP/W. I used to dive a jacket style BC. I loved them both. I simply stated a fact which you denied. If someone comes looking for information, we are better off giving them true information rather than spreading half truths in either direction.

There was nothing half-truth about my post, and I did not accuse you of attacking BP/W set ups. And I did not deny your 'fact'; in the same post I said you were correct about it...jeez. You wrote, "Well, the reality is that if you put too much air in your wing, you are likely to be pushed forward " in the context of a conversation about a drawback of BP/Ws being that they push divers forward. I simply said, in response, that this would happen with a jacket BC as well if the weight were all on the forward side.

If you want to argue over minutia, at least get your accusations straight!

 

[boulderjohn]

Well, since I was mentioned a couple of times in this thread, I guess I had better jump in.

Yes, I do dive with a BP/W, and yes, I would be happy to give you whatever help I can. I see from the thread that you have already ordered one. If you live close enough, we can get together and I can show you the ropes. I will be out of the state for nearly two months starting soon, so if you want to get started, the sooner the better. I will be taking some students to a good dive site in New Mexico near the end of this month, and you would be welcome to come along.