What is the real difference in the training

[Teamcasa]

RSTC, PADI, SSI, PDIC, SDI, IDEA, WRSTC, ABCDEFG = who really cares? The reality is that a freshly trained diver that wants to continue diving desires and finds better training. Those that don't usually only dive infrequently (on vacation) and many of them, ultimately stop diving altogether.

Like most of the divers here, we dive frequently, train often and gravitate to better, more experienced instructors and mentors. Our original training simply opened the door.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Your opinion. From what I know about RSTC, they are about minimum standards - are you involved with them?, even been to their website, etc.? Of course someone not involved currently with an organization involved in teaching the majority of the US to dive ( PADI, SSI) may wish to say "oh, it's about marketing" for business purposes.

I believe that I clarified this in my response. OK, so I was only talking about 90%+ of certified divers. My bad, neglected the other few %.

We sort of agree on this - I do not have to go outside of my agency's standards to provide excellent instruction. Not sure if you were referring to something like that or not.
...

Without turning this into an agency issue, here's my problem with the whole concept of "minimum standards" ... they're meant to provide a baseline below which the instructor must not go, but in practice they turn into a checklist that the instructor uses to measure success. Have a student do something once ... usually while kneeling ... check it off and move on to the next "skill". Anything above a failing grade suddenly becomes an "A".

That is not my idea of quality instruction. Learning comes from understanding ... mastery comes from repetition ... "minimum standards" are easily achieved without ever approaching either.

Anybody can provide excellent instruction without going outside of their agency's standards. Anybody can also provide crappy instruction while adhering to their agency's "minimum standards". That's the rub. Quality isn't measured by "standards" ... it's measured by comprehension and by retention. Minimum standards don't measure those ... the instructor has to ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lowviz]

Without turning this into an agency issue, here's my problem with the whole concept of "minimum standards" ... they're meant to provide a baseline below which the instructor must not go, but in practice they turn into a checklist that the instructor uses to measure success. Have a student do something once ... usually while kneeling ... check it off and move on to the next "skill". Anything above a failing grade suddenly becomes an "A"...//...

Agencies aside, I like to think of it as "Pablum diving". Pablum is a brilliant invention set to fill a past need of uniform minimal nutrition. Nothing exceptional, and thus, highly immune from improvement. The intellectually annoying part of this is that it really does serve a basic need to a minimum level. This, I believe, is what is stalling the progress of dive education.

 

[diveprof]

Good, I believe that we are more or less on the same wavelength now. As I've stated since my first post, I believe that the quality of the instructor is what makes the difference - not so much the agency. Minimum standards are a part of many activities/professions/qualifications. They are a fact of life. It doesn't mean that you teach only to the minimal standard. Personally, I am glad that there are some minimal standards - can you imagine what could pass for a certification if there were not some sort of minimum standards in place? Because there are minimum standards does not mean that we teach to those minimal standards. To me a quality instructor, regardless of agency, does not teach only to the level of minimum standards, but rather assists the student in achieving a higher level of competence.

 

[lowviz]

...//.... To me a quality instructor, regardless of agency, does not teach only to the level of minimum standards, but rather assists the student in achieving a higher level of competence.

-worth repeating.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Good, I believe that we are more or less on the same wavelength now. As I've stated since my first post, I believe that the quality of the instructor is what makes the difference - not so much the agency. Minimum standards are a part of many activities/professions/qualifications. They are a fact of life. It doesn't mean that you teach only to the minimal standard. Personally, I am glad that there are some minimal standards - can you imagine what could pass for a certification if there were not some sort of minimum standards in place? Because there are minimum standards does not mean that we teach to those minimal standards. To me a quality instructor, regardless of agency, does not teach only to the level of minimum standards, but rather assists the student in achieving a higher level of competence.

I think we always were on the same wavelength ... except for the bit about the RSTC. I think most instructors like to believe they offer quality ... and many do in fact. But ask yourself this ... if the RSTC didn't exist, what would you be doing differently in terms of how you teach your classes? If the answer is that you'd be teaching them the same way you do now, then the minimum standards are having no effect at all on you.

The reality is that quality instruction comes at a price ... and in order to stay in business, that price must be covered in some way. Many dive shops sell instruction as a loss leader, paying poor wages to their instructors. The cost is covered by hiring low-quality instructors, keeping classes to the minimum requirements, and charging high prices for items the students are required to purchase for the class.

In this respect, the answer to the question in the thread title is generally that you get what you pay for ... which is something we should all keep in mind when we're shopping around for that next class we want to take ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Peter Guy]

NWGD wrote

Many dive shops sell instruction as a loss leader, paying poor wages to their instructors. The cost is covered by hiring low-quality instructors, keeping classes to the minimum requirements, and charging high prices for items the students are required to purchase for the class.

What I find interesting about this statement is the contradiction within it (highlighted). The shops APPEAR to sell the classes as a loss leader but, in reality, don't. Once the "add ons" are priced, the shop comes out quite well -- especially since its marginal costs for holding the class may, in fact, be pretty minimal. Of course IF the Instructor's pay is based solely on the stated price of the class, it is the Instructor who gets left holding the bag.

"Instructor's of the world unite....."

 

[VooDooGasMan]

So lets see here NWG & peter are both saying the pay is low for instructors.

1st of all when ya get your inst cert you now need to certify many students to move to the next cert and also to be more valued later or elsewhere. Dive shop is actually were students come in to play the game of scuba.
2nd is what has happen to all your students up to date and why are they not diving? They have to spend money, then more money to go dive and get to the dive site, then have to listen and learn more about diving.
3rd and this is the most Important of all, it's there choice to move forward past OW class(Intro to SCUBA). If they spent 3 weeks or a month of evening and pool classes and a few weekends diving in open water to achieve all the skills, you now have a committed student that is a good diver.
4th $1000.00, student buy's nothing at all and is guaranteed to be a confident Diver and Buddy. Pool time, air, water for washing gear, Cert card. 8 Divers 8 grand.
5th one inst can do 2 classes in same time length, which provides make up dives in some cases.
6th is 16,000.00, all this time they have been to the shop and bought, which is where you get the dive shop to split in 1/2 for there cost they still make money on gear and less lost to online shopping as they are there for over a month.

LUCKY7 no matter how you put it almost all Inst will never make money cause the only thing they bring to the table is a inst cert. People go to a Dive shop, it is a place they can see for themselves. Change the game of SCUBA.

8 Its to late to change the training.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NWGD wrote

What I find interesting about this statement is the contradiction within it (highlighted). The shops APPEAR to sell the classes as a loss leader but, in reality, don't. Once the "add ons" are priced, the shop comes out quite well -- especially since its marginal costs for holding the class may, in fact, be pretty minimal. Of course IF the Instructor's pay is based solely on the stated price of the class, it is the Instructor who gets left holding the bag.

"Instructor's of the world unite....."

This is why I no longer will teach through a dive shop. I don't begrudge them their business model ... I simply decided not to be a part of it.

As I've explained in other threads on related topics, it's not my goal to change the industry ... just to produce the best divers I can from those who choose me to teach them how to dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[beanojones]

When I became a certified coach by the USVBA, that fact was drilled into me by my instructor. He said--and subsequent experience showed it to be true--that students learn primarily through imitation. They will pick out a role model and try to do whatever that person is doing. .

If this is true then why won't instructors take the lesson, and shut up and take their students diving? I am consistently amazed by the amount of talking instructors want to put into an OW course, which is all about proper diving behavior.

That GUE course the other thread covered is 10 days long with just 10 dives (?), but hours and hours of classroom. As noted in my comments, the instructor managed to model, and teach some really bad dive behavior, behavior that I am absolutely sure he lectured about, because it is simple basic buddy procedures and ocean behavior.

"Nothing that was ever said matters as much as what is done" is never more true than in diving 'education'.