How serious a screw-up was this?

[tomfcrist]

Well, here is the crux of the matter. Not everyone views the role of the DM in this way. Many of us feel that it is the diver's responsibility to do what is necessary to ensure his own safety. And there is no way that anyone can be "everyones buddy".

You are not understanding me completely. The DM has a DUTY to check out a divers gear before they splash. Does that mean a full on Buddy check? NO.

What it means is make sure their mask is on their face, reg is in their mouth, fins are on and AIR is on. This whole process takes about 5 seconds per diver and EVERY DM work his weight in salt should be doing this.

Once agian, i too believe that the diver should takeresponibility for his/her own safety, however the DM has a professional obligation to take a very vested interest in the safety of his/her divers. Otherwise, why have a DM at all? Any joe blow can set an anchor, and count divers in/out. Why does a DM need a certification and Professional liability insurance? Because of thier PROFESSIONAL OBLIGATION to ensure the safety of the divers in his charge to the best of his ability. Period.

If there is really any question as to the responsibilitys of a DM, and what they should or should not be responsible for maybe we should start a new thread on that subject. Im sure there are some DM's and Instructors out there that have been sued for what they considered not their responsibility and the courts thought otherwise....any pre-law students here want to do some research for me???? I wouldnt know where to start looking.

 

[String]

The DM is supposed to be everyones buddy, and catch all the dumb mistakes that divers make BEFORE the dive..

No he isn't. Where do you get that from? A dm provides the logistics involved in a dive (ie site choice, boat, tanks, a thorough brief and first aid stuff if needed). He's not a nanny. The qualified divers are responsible for planning and executing their dive.

 

[Tortuga68]

lol now the DM is responsible for making sure you have your mask on your face?

I wouldnt know where to start looking.

You could start by looking at the waiver you sign before getting on the boat

 

[Brendon]

I'm a pretty new diver. Last month, after several shore dives in Monterey, I took my first warm water, boat diving trip. Everything went great for me; I had a fantastic time. On the last day we were joined by two guys who obviously were great pals and highly experienced divers. The dive shop set up our gear; we just got into our BC's and rolled backwards off the side of the boat. After the last dive, I learned that they had sent one of the pals over the side without turning on his air. He joked about it ("That was a tip buster!") but there was a little edge to his jokes. I'm sure he and his buddy (and the DM) had enough experience to solve the problem quickly, but I imagine that could be a serious issue with someone inexperienced and/or prone to panic. So how would that rate on a scale of one (no big deal, this sort of thing happens all the time in scuba) to ten (shocking negligence, dive shop shoud be reported)?

The responsibility of the air being turned on falls onto the divers shoulders... However if the DM was last to jump or working dry then he should have been checking as divers prepared to enter the water. Still though, not his fault... Assembling gear, turning on air, checking for weight belts... Those kind of things are traits of a good DM but not a requirement. You jump in with out your air on, overweighted, no air in BC, mask falls off etc. Its the divers fault, though one would hope a good DM would catch these sort of things.. If your rig is setup in a way that you cant reach the valve you got problems, I know many divers that could not turn their air on in the water. For me this is not an issue so I give it a 3 on your scale. Its more likely to piss me off then scare me. Mad only at the fact that I would have forgot to turn my air on.

 

[tomfcrist]

No he isn't. Where do you get that from? A dm provides the logistics involved in a dive (ie site choice, boat, tanks, a thorough brief and first aid stuff if needed). He's not a nanny. The qualified divers are responsible for planning and executing their dive.

I didnt say he was a nanny. Are you implying that a DM has no professional obligation to the divers on his boat? If so, why is he required to carry insurance?

lol now the DM is responsible for making sure you have your mask on your face?

What Divemaster do you know that lets someone splash without a mask on? As a matter of fact provide me with a specific incident, the DM's name, the agency, and his agency number so we can make sure he isnt around anymore.

You could start by looking at the waiver you sign before getting on the boat

The waiver does not mean sh!t when it comes to gross negligence......Not ensuring the divers air is on is about as negligent as letting a diver jump in with a reg in his mouth that isnt attached to his tank....Have you ever heard of the term Global awareness?

 

[Tortuga68]

Have you ever heard of the term certified diver?

String just asked you where you get this idea from that the DM is responsible for all these things that a trained diver is supposed to check for themselves - I'd also be interested to know the answer to that

If you're going to throw around terms like gross negligence, at least explain what you're basing them on

From PADI's standard liability form:

"3. Use complete, well-maintained, reliable equipment with which I am familiar; and inspect it for correct fit and function
prior to each dive"

From a typical waiver:

"4 I will inspect all of my equipment prior to the activity and will notify the above listed businesses and /or individuals if any of my
equipment is not working properly. I will not hold the above listed businesses nor individuals responsible for my failure to inspect my
equipment prior to diving"

 

[tomfcrist]

Have you ever heard of the term certified diver?

HMMM....Yes once or twice.

String just asked you where you get this idea from that the DM is responsible for all these things that a trained diver is supposed to do for themselves - I'd also be interested to know the answer to that

If you're going to throw around terms like gross negligence, at least explain what you're basing them on

The Dive shop they were diving with set their gear up for them.....The minute you, as a dive professional take responsibility for setting up a customers gear, you are taking responsibility for thier gear being set up right, and SAFE. The fact that the guy was allowed to jump into his gear and get into the water without his air being on IS gross negligence.

"The dive shop set up our gear; we just got into our BC's and rolled backwards off the side of the boat."

This tells me it was a small boat, probably a RHIB where the divers were most likely told to get into their gear and get wet in a relitively unstable environment. What were ya'll saying about DM's being responsible for the logistics and planning of a dive? If you are going to set someones gear up for them, you turn the damn air on.

 

[Tortuga68]

So in your opinion, if someone else sets your gear up for you, that excuses you from needing to check it yourself, despite the fact that's what you were trained to do and you just signed a waiver saying you would do. Got it

 

[tomfcrist]

From PADI's standard liability form:

"3. Use complete, well-maintained, reliable equipment with which I am familiar; and inspect it for correct fit and function
prior to each dive"

From a typical waiver:

"4 I will inspect all of my equipment prior to the activity and will notify the above listed businesses and /or individuals if any of my
equipment is not working properly. I will not hold the above listed businesses nor individuals responsible for my failure to inspect my
equipment prior to diving"

I am positive that you are suggesting that all waivers are "TYPICAL" and the same verbage is used in all of them......I'm glad that the two examples that ypou have are very specific as to the EXACT responsibilitys of the diver, however not all are like that......Get a few more dive boats under your belt and you will understand what i mean.

 

[tomfcrist]

So in your opinion, if someone else sets your gear up for you, that excuses you from needing to check it yourself, despite the fact that's what you were trained to do and you just signed a waiver saying you would do. Got it

No. I have been saying that the diver screwed up from the start.....Go back and read my posts if you dont believe me. What I'm saying is that the DM also has responsibilitys and failed to live up to them. The differance is that the DM has an obligation to the diver, where the diver has an obligation to himself.

Once again, not all waivers are the same as the ones that you have seen in your limited experiance.