Bail-out the diveleader?

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This is a very interesting question but there is an assumption behind it that we need to put on the table.

Namely, the assumption that the dive-guide should be responsible for the dive-profiles of all the certified divers in the water with them.

Is this so?

To my way of thinking, a dive-guide should be responsible for two primary things:

1) navigation through a site as experienced local diver
2) tempo, meaning in most cases that he chooses a 'line' through the site that works in terms of air consumption and duration that the divers with him can reach the exit with a reasonable reserve in their tanks.

Normally the dive-guide also gives a briefing in which he/she explains, among other things, max-depth, duration, entry/exit, what you'll see, some basics of the route and some emergency procedures.

These are NOT intended in most cases as parameters to ignore after which the guide is blindly followed to the tune of "just keep swimming, just keep swimming" in which you relinquish all responsibility for your own dive-plan and/or safety and put yourself in a position that the DM (despite how good they may be) is responsible for thinking FOR you.

To the contrary. If you are not planning your own dive, taking responsibility for your own dive profile and ensuring that it fits within the parameters laid out for the dive during the briefing, then YOU are the big-red-dot on the radar, and not the DM.

I'll give you two examples.

1) a dive on Elphanstone reef in Egypt (many people know it). It's a vertical wall with a hard-bottom at about 300m depth. We dove there with a guide whose instructions were "dive-time is 60 min" and "stay within visual range" (we were all experienced divers with a min of 500 dives)

One dive team (mine) decided to dive the reef shallow and look for Oceanic white-tip sharks, which are often found in the shallow range. We planned our dive as a no-deco dive and were ready to ascend to the surface after 60 min

Another team decided to look for hammerhead sharks, which are often found at 70-odd metres. They dove to 45-50 or so and spent about 15 min looking for sharks. They had a planned deco-obligation but were also ready to ascend to the surface after 60 min.... according to plan.

The dive guide did a dive of about 25m so he could see us in the shallows and see the other group in the deep and control the parameters of the dive. He communicated to all when he wanted the group to re-assemble and remained in constant visual contact with both dive-teams, in particular for tempo and navigation.

After the dive, both teams had achieved their goals and spotted their intended targets. Everyone had a safe, enjoyable dive and everyone kept themselves to the general dive plan. Isn't this *exactly* what you expect from a dive-guide?

2) A dive I did in Mexico many years ago. The dive parameters were "45 min", "dive within NDL's" and "don't forget to do a safety stop".

There were 3 or 4 buddy teams, which mostly consisted of inexperienced divers. The DM went overboard and most of the boat went overboard with her and started swimming where-ever her flippers went. The DM decided to swim at about 10m through the dive-site.

I, and my buddy,... however... decided to decend to 30m (the hard-bottom) to look for nudibranches on the sandy bottom. We were fully aware of the parameters of 45 min, no-deco and and safety-stop and followed those instructions to the letter.

The DM, however, didn't understand her own briefing and started getting spastic as soon as we got deeper than about 15 metres. She whistled us back 3 or 4 times because we went deeper than she did and started inspecting our SPG's and giving us increasingly "stern" warnings to maintain depth.

We exited the dive somewhat..... er... irritated... because the DM wouldn't accept us doing anything else besides following around behind her flippers (which is the only thing most of the divers on that dive saw).

On this dive: (a) NOBODY saw what they wanted to see...unless the objective was to look at stupid pink jet fins.... and (b) nobody enjoyed it.

However, she *did* control every variable to the point where she was diving for everyone in the group..... :shakehead:

...

I *do* believe that in some situations it's important to control the dive to this extent, but outside of a course format those moments are rare.

R..

I agree with you completely. A dive-guide gives the profile of the dive, the time and depth limits, and assumes that since you are a certified diver you are capable of monitoring yourself. If a problem arises, the dive guide is there to help you if you are following the "stay in sight of the DM" or can communicate a problem. If one if going to "opt out" of the suggested itinerary, he/she/they should communicate ahead of time to the guide guide that they are intending on descending lower than the suggested profile, but will ascend sooner so as not to go into 'deco', which is a no-no on most charter boats. Most dive guides get into serious trouble when part of their group goes into deco, even when they say not to in their dive briefing. Communication is so critical to all divers, and it makes the dive guide's job easier if they know ahead of time what to expect. If one is inexperienced, they NEED to stay within sight of the dive guide so problems can be addressed when necessary.

I have been on dives when not working as a DM where I have had to help out distressed divers. In no way do I blame the dive guide for not taking care of the situation him/herself. They have enough to keep the group together without having to worry about every individual being capable to handle their certification level of dealing with problems. Along with that, having a dive buddy who is aware of what is going on with their buddy at all times should alleviate the dive guide's responsibility of "babysitting" each and every diver every minute of the dive. As divers, we are all responsible for being able to help another diver in distress if the occassion arises.
 
You weren't Scubaboarding and driving were you???? :shocked2:

LOL no I was doing a vandalism report in a parking lot. I just minimized the screen so I could scubaboard :)
 
Jumping in with an empty tank huh?

With all the things that go on during a surface interval sometimes even th DM forgets to switch out thier tank. I can tell you from experience that you only do that move ONCE! your lucky to have experienced it first hand...I bet you won't do that.

good luck on the DM

Brian
 
Jumping in with an empty tank huh?

With all the things that go on during a surface interval sometimes even th DM forgets to switch out thier tank. I can tell you from experience that you only do that move ONCE! your lucky to have experienced it first hand...I bet you won't do that.

good luck on the DM

Brian

Thanks. Actually, the Capt. usually switched out the tanks. But checking it anyway would've helped....
 
ScarefaceDM put it best "the DM is not your private babysitter".
However that is not what this post is about,
I agree, and that is correct.

What do you mean by bail-out?
If they require aid in any way from any one in the group they are leading, including their buddy if they have one. Includes OOA, entanglement, animal or reef injury, knocked unconscious, panic attack, whatever else...

Even a divemaster/guide is still diving under the buddy system; so if they have any sort of problem, it is absolutely reasonable that they might expect assistance from another diver.
Fair enough. :cool2:

Perhaps the real question should be... how many divemasters have to bail out divers whose buddies were not paying attention to them??
OK, that is a great idea. So answer the original question unless you are a pro, then answer this one about groups you have led.

I have been on dives when not working as a DM where I have had to help out distressed divers. In no way do I blame the dive guide for not taking care of the situation him/herself. They have enough to keep the group together without having to worry about every individual being capable to handle their certification level of dealing with problems. Along with that, having a dive buddy who is aware of what is going on with their buddy at all times should alleviate the dive guide's responsibility of "babysitting" each and every diver every minute of the dive. As divers, we are all responsible for being able to help another diver in distress if the occassion arises.
I do think that dive leaders do have a greater responsibility than just another diver, DM rated or not. In my opinion, the responsibility chain is self, buddy, leader, other divers. Having a backup of a backup of a backup of a backup is good. I would think that not giving air to an OOA diver just because he is not your buddy would be very irresponsible, but I would be bringing it with that diver, their buddy, and the leader afterward though. I would hope that every diver is always looking out for every other diver they are around.


I no way was I complaining that the DM was not watching me and only me. I am fully aware that all effort should be put into making myself a safer diver, and safer in any risky activity for that matter. People die all the time :shocked2: hiking here.

It was just a question, now with an additional question as suggested by DevonDiver.

:zen:
 
Going back to the topic... :)

I didn't really have to bail out the DM but he was acting as a guide so I did my own thing with respect to the briefing (dive time, etc) but going down deeper than he wanted and still respecting the dive time and safety stop. I've also had the chance of hauling up 2 new divers (less than 20 dives, inexperienced with wall diving) up from 37m which was way beyond their 20m limit. While I consider myself as a newbie myself, the DM was too far away and I couldn't just float there and do nothing.

Just for clarification, the depth limits for certification are for training dives. As an OW diver, you can dive to 45m. It is just not advisable, you are taught to dive within your training and limits. If you don't, you are taking unnecessary risks. YOU are responsible for your own safety it is unfortunate that those divers ignored the dive plan (so did you), but they elected to do so, they would be held responsible if anything happened. Also as a newer diver you should also be aware that you do not put your own safety in jeopardy to assist another diver and compound the problem. I would say you did the right thing and I if witnessed your efforts I would be talking to you about becoming an Instructor.

Good Job..

Brian
 
OK, that is a great idea. So answer the original question unless you are a pro, then answer this one about groups you have led.

I am a pro. There are so many examples I could give where I have rendered assistance to divers, up to, and including a full-scale recovery of an unconsious, non-breathing diver at the surface. Low-on air is quite common, I've probably put divers onto my AAS on at least 2 dozen occasions. Tired divers is another issue - I've towed more than a few exhausted divers before. Helping with buoyancy features occasionally. And, of course, reminders to check air, stay with buddy, check NDL... that's all day-to-day stuff.

Many of those divers who have problems tend to be the moderately experienced (50+ dives & AOW/Rescue) ones. Complency sets in around this time and it causes errors. Newer divers tend to understand their limitations and are, generally, quite zealous about keeping themselves safe.

There are definitely stages in the development process, where a diver has enough experience to be complacent, but not enough experience to be safe. An over-assumption of competance quite often accompanies training courses also... after AOW, Rescue and DM courses, some people assume they have the skills needed... but don't understand that those skills are not yet embedded.
 
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On one dive I went on it was a cruise ship excursion (Just ask scuba boarders about how those go and youll get a kick out of the response usually) ..........
One of my stranger experiences in a DM led group was with a cruise boat group.

After a week of diving in Cozumel my desat time was in the mid-30 hours so I decided to go on the "shallow boat" for my last dive day. The other 5 customers were all from a cruise boat. 3 certified and 2 discover scuba. 15 minutes into the dive the DM writes a note to me: "Lead group. Come up 45 min". Then he waved "bye-bye" and surfaced with the couple. It took several minutes before the other 3 noticed the DM was missing, then they happily followed me along Paradise reef for another 20 or 25 minutes before one of them hit ascent pressure and we all surfaced beneath my DSMB.

I had been with the DM several times that week, he knew I had a DSMB, and I guess he trusted me to lead the group after he bailed out.
 
I have never rescued a DM, but I have had to take over guiding the group back to the boat once or twice in my local waters.

A lot of angry posts above challenging the assumption that it is the DM's responsibility to baby-sit the group. You may not like the assumption, but in a great many parts of the world with a large tourist diving population, I am afraid that is the reality.
 

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