What if...? Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives

[fjpatrum]

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

On a related note ... there are three hand signals in scuba diving that are known as "command signals".

- do you know what they are?
- do you know why they are called "command signals"?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I know thumb is one, I would assume sharing air is another. I can't think of a third. I'm anxiously awaiting the answer, though.

 

[xyrandomyx]

I asked Google this question. It told me the 'OK' signal, the 'thumb' and the 'hold' signal -- a fist. I wasn't at all familiar with the 'hold' signal. I've been taught that a fist against the chest is 'low on air'; a fist away from the chest is 'danger'. The closest to the 'hold' signal that I know is a flat palm pointed upwards for 'stop'.

I guess that just goes to show that reviewing signals before diving with someone new (and probably every now and then with regular buddies) is a good idea.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Anyone is encouraged to a post new scenario for discussion, but please follow the instructions above when answering and keep it relevant to the topic.

Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives
* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

What if the plan has no turn pressure?

What if the plan is to go into an overhead environment?

Cave Diver; I read, understood and followed the instructions in your OP. Looking above at the quote from your OP, I followed your encouragement to post a new scenario for discussion...

What if the plan has no turn pressure?

It doesnt matter. There should be a discussion regarding some sort of turn point in your dive, whether it be a set time, pressure, or reaching a certain point in the dive. I tend to avoid dives with no plan for turning the dive. Otherwise, we'd end up a mile and a half down the reef and surfacing because we ran out of gas and having to do a surface swim or walk of shame back to our entry point.

No small irony in which technical dive discipline most likely originated the concept of "turn pressure" but since not all diving is the same it seems hard to imagine all dive plans are the same. There are a lot of guided dives in the world that don't always have the same exit as entry.

My favorite same exit as entry guiding plan is max depth, max time, search for cool stuff hitting the dive site's highlights, in the best "path" for the conditions and divers.

When the loosely planned "path" is not followed may actually be the dive of a lifetime. I'm looking forward to a planned Cathedral dive where we don't dive the Cathedral, because that will probably mean dolphins, monk seal, whale shark or humpbacks!

​

What if the plan is to go into an overhead environment?

Then that's not really applicable to this discussion is it? This discussion revolves around deviations from the plan or pushing people past their comfort levels.

Up until you posted those words above I saw no indication that "this discussion revolves around deviations from the plan or pushing people past their comfort levels" - was I supposed to read some other thread to understand this thread?

There is such a thing as sea caves, and it is possible to find encounter them diving from a boat or even the shore. In Grand Cayman there is Eden Rock and I've done several dives there that could be considered caves. There is also some off of East End that is only accessible by boat. Mexico, the Bahamas and the Gulf of Mexico are other places that come immediately to mind where they may be encountered.

I've been inside a cave in Mexico that was significantly less distance than some swim coral swim throughs I've done. Probably less than 100' in and you're completely out of sight of the entrance without having to go through any restrictions.

These were guided dives? Beginners go on these cave tours? The briefings don't mention the caves?

Perhaps because we are one of the Litigious States of America, the vast majority of guided lava tube/cavern tours in Hawaii are rarely even 100' from the surface, and always within sight of an exit.

 

[xyrandomyx]

Cave Diver; I read, understood and followed the instructions in your OP. Looking above at the quote from your OP, I followed your encouragement to post a new scenario for discussion...





No small irony in which technical dive discipline most likely originated the concept of "turn pressure" but since not all diving is the same it seems hard to imagine all dive plans are the same. There are a lot of guided dives in the world that don't always have the same exit as entry.

My favorite same exit as entry guiding plan is max depth, max time, search for cool stuff hitting the dive site's highlights, in the best "path" for the conditions and divers.

When the loosely planned "path" is not followed may actually be the dive of a lifetime. I'm looking forward to a planned Cathedral dive where we don't dive the Cathedral, because that will probably mean dolphins, monk seal, whale shark or humpbacks!

​

Up until you posted those words above I saw no indication that "this discussion revolves around deviations from the plan or pushing people past their comfort levels" - was I supposed to read some other thread to understand this thread?



These were guided dives? Beginners go on these cave tours? The briefings don't mention the caves?

Perhaps because we are one of the Litigious States of America, the vast majority of guided lava tube/cavern tours in Hawaii are rarely even 100' from the surface, and always within sight of an exit.

I'd imagine that a very detailed plan for a guided recreational dive would be unnecessary. I'd think simply knowing the minimum pressure when an ascent becomes a really good idea would be acceptable. That and knowing enough about the conditions to determine that the dive was within the diver's own experience and training and free of complicating factors (like, say, having to return to an anchor line to make an ascent safely).

And, I think that the discussion sort of assumed that some (hopefully not many) operators aren't responsible. For example, DM's ignoring divers when they pointed out that their pressure was really low; or DM's deciding to deviate from the plan and lead people into overhead environments. Not the norm, I'm sure, but the thread was sort of about preparing for unexpected situations.

 

[Cave Diver]

Cave Diver; I read, understood and followed the instructions in your OP. Looking above at the quote from your OP, I followed your encouragement to post a new scenario for discussion...

Fair enough. I didn't recognize it as you presenting it as new scenario the way you worded it.

No small irony in which technical dive discipline most likely originated the concept of "turn pressure" but since not all diving is the same it seems hard to imagine all dive plans are the same. There are a lot of guided dives in the world that don't always have the same exit as entry.

This is a very good point and one that I don't think has been brought up yet. We might need to add different exit/entry points to the scenario list.

My favorite same exit as entry guiding plan is max depth, max time, search for cool stuff hitting the dive site's highlights, in the best "path" for the conditions and divers.

When the loosely planned "path" is not followed may actually be the dive of a lifetime. I'm looking forward to a planned Cathedral dive where we don't dive the Cathedral, because that will probably mean dolphins, monk seal, whale shark or humpbacks!

Up until you posted those words above I saw no indication that "this discussion revolves around deviations from the plan or pushing people past their comfort levels" - was I supposed to read some other thread to understand this thread?

I thought it was pretty well implied that we were talking about deviations when it's presented as part of the scenario.

* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

These were guided dives? Beginners go on these cave tours? The briefings don't mention the caves?

Strangely enough an example was just posted a bit ago of one of the places I was talking about: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...iving/375950-would-like-peoples-thoughts.html

Perhaps because we are one of the Litigious States of America, the vast majority of guided lava tube/cavern tours in Hawaii are rarely even 100' from the surface, and always within sight of an exit.

I would think that the litigious nature of our country would probably stop this altogether. We are after all, the same country that produces children's cough medicine with the warning not to operate heavy equipment after taking it. I don't know of many 7 year olds driving backhoes.

 

[Rhenry]

Let me premise my statements before i make them, first i am a very cautious diver. I do not go very far out of my comfort zone in most everything i do. Having said that, i do push the envelope not and then, but only a little bit each time.
In this case: What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
I would signal my dive partner to go up, and i would not let the dive continue. My thought on this is simple, dive rules are there for a reason: to keep you alive, to dive another day. While going over may not present an issue, i would NOT risk it. I would terminate the dive period end story. ( yes i am quit strong on safety)
What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?
I would NOT follow, since i am not certified and he is not an instructor and we have not had any training on this, the risk is way out of line. I might wait at the entrance if he went in, but in any case i would not go in. If we had a chance to "talk" i would signal him and question the new dive strategy. If i could not get his attention i would just wait and or surface.
As for the rest the same applies, i would not go. i would consider options but i would never violate my training level.

 

[MRadke]

That's one of those "what you don't know, can kill you" moments.

Once you enter a hole, you're committed to a swimthough with an unknown length, an unknown exit point at an unknown depth, and you also have no ability to share air (too narrow for side-by-side and your hose won't reach lengthwise ), and you have no ability to get out because generally there's someone both in front and behind of you.

If you run OOA on a group swim-though of a single-file area, you're pretty much screwed.

It doesn't really matter if the DM is a nice guy or not.

flots.

Well, since you've quoted me, I'd like to answer. First, when I said it's situational, it has nothing to do with whether the DM is a nice guy or not. It's whether I've done enough diving with the individual to be able to make a judgement call. That, coupled with both of us knowing what I have left for gas. Second, while I'm new to SCUBA, I'm not to SCBA. For over twenty years I've been doing, and leading, trust me dives of a sort every time I've gone interior on a structure fire. You could not know that because I've filled out blessed little of my profile, but it does colour my judgement in regard to these questions.

 

[Jax]

Looking again at those dark swim-throughs mentioned above . . .

Spousal unit A hang out on ScubaBoard and is completely convinced that you don't go through a swim-through you cannot see the exit of . . .

Spousal unit B believes, "hey, the DM won't take my somewhere I could get hurt."


So, A watches his/her buddy B follow the DM into a dark cave-ish swim through.

What should A do?

 

[Cave Diver]

Looking again at those dark swim-throughs mentioned above . . .

Spousal unit A hang out on ScubaBoard and is completely convinced that you don't go through a swim-through you cannot see the exit of . . .

Spousal unit B believes, "hey, the DM won't take my somewhere I could get hurt."


So, A watches his/her buddy B follow the DM into a dark cave-ish swim through.

What should A do?

Is this just A-B and DM? Or part of a larger group? Is anyone else not following?

 

[Jax]

Is this just A-B and DM? Or part of a larger group? Is anyone else not following?

Four went through, two did not.