what reasons have you seen people not pass certifications?

[TSandM]

I've seen several students not pass OW (and I shouldn't have, at least when I did ). One was so passive, she simply refused to swim (I'm not kidding). One seemed like he had ADD, and couldn't focus long enough to follow directions. He went through, IIRC, THREE different classes with different instructors and didn't go on to his OW dives with any of them. Two teenagers just either didn't do their bookwork, or couldn't retain it, and couldn't pass the exam. They got Scuba Diver certs, and went on to finish up later.

In my limited experience, what keeps folks from passing is either anxiety or lack of focus or application. With more advanced classes, things are different. I didn't pass my first Rec Triox class because I couldn't execute everything expected of us within standards on any given day, but I worked with a different instructor and went on to pass. I didn't pass Cave 2 because of situational awareness issues. But the standards for those types of classes is totally different from that of OW.

 

[k ellis]

Well I guess I should throw my story of what I witnessed into the mix. On the most notorious occasion I was invited to tag along with the Course director here while a close friend of mine went out and did his open water. The conditions were way less then desirable even for an experienced diver but it was one of the very few places within reasonable time of driving that had a warm water temperture. I want to say it was around may march or so.

In my friends class were 4 students and when we all got suited and into the water the instructor repeated to everyone that they could wait if they were not comfortable with the conditions and he was there purely for the groups request. Visibility was less the 3 feet. Id say maybe 2 honestly.

As we began the dive it was necessary to use a flashlight at a mere 10 feet just to see the guages. Before the dive started however was when we began to notice things not being for the best. My friend was on the surface and staring off into space almost as if he has seen a ghost look. A few waves in front of my hands and he blinked and looked at me. I then informed him hey if your not comfortable its perfectly ok to call it and wait for better conditions. He refused and said he wanted to go forth with it.

In his dives he went to 10 feet on a couple of attempts but never could stay under and kept panicking. needless to say he did not cert that day and to my knowledge never has certified yet. The other 2 were as well in as much trouble. One begged the instructor to please just give him the cert so he could use it for his school and he promised to tear it up after words. Well no dice there and some bad words were exchanged.

The third person panicked severely on not being able to see and I had to track him down because on tour he became seperated from the instructor. After both of us were looking for him we found him by literaly swimming on surface to his bubbles and dropping down on him.

The fourth I believe did pass and did the whole platoon thing on his knees and hands in the air saying Thank you jesus for letting that be over with.

So out of 4 potential divers only one certified as the other 3 never tried again.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I've had a couple people not pass OW ...

One couldn't swim ... despite the fact that I had told him when he signed up for the class that it was a requirement. He got halfway across the pool and bolted for the side with a wide-eyed look of fear on his face. I told him that before he could continue the class he would need to go sign up for swimming lessons and learn to overcome his fear of the water, and to contact me when he did that so we could continue with his scuba lessons. I never heard back from him.

The other was my only case of full-blown panic during checkout dives. He did fine in the pool, but during the first checkout dive, the mask flood and clear exercise induced a panic response that endangered both him and myself. I worked with him for several hours in the shallows trying to overcome the response ... which I've done successfully with other students ... but he never overcame his fear of having a flooded mask. I told him I couldn't certify him because of my concern that someday that response was going to end up killing him. Again I never heard from him again.

I've had to have "the talk" with a student from time to time about personal responsibility and about putting more effort into the class. Some students come into the class thinking that they're buying a certification. Once they understand that they're buying training, and that certification comes only IF they meet the class objectives, they have been able to continue through until they completed the class successfully. In my most recent case like that it took four months ... but she eventually got there ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[hg frogman]

From my experience (either students I failed or I saw being failed by other instructors):

1) Ear problems. Either the person cannot equalize because of a physiological problem that contra-indicate diving but wasn't detected during the medical check. That happens. And this you can't tell before the first dive deeper than 2 or 3 meters. My advice is to do an intro dive before engaging in an OW course, at least to check that you like diving (!) and that your ears and sinuses can be equalized.

Or the person screw up her/his ears during the course and has to interrupt the course for a few days.

2) Excessive anxiety, phobias ... This you can tell quite early in the course, it's often related to the "mask clearing" skill. As the second session of the PADI OW course implies a one-minute-without-mask breathing, this pretty much eliminates those who are too anxious to "master" it without showing excessive anxiety. An issue for the instructor is to spend enough time with these clients (to give them a fair chance) without sacrificing the other clients. For the most difficult cases, I think the best is to get them out of the course and to ask them to look for a private instructor/course and, if it doesn't work in such a course, to fail them without any remorse. It's better for their safety, after all.

There are other reasons (people grossly unfit, lack of application/seriousness from the student ...) but the two above are the most common (up to more than 10% of the would-be OW divers) in my experience.

Last thing: stay away from an instructor who never failed anybody.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I have also told one student that was passed to me that she needed to get swim lessons and get more comfortable in the water. I have had two that required individual time in the pool but both were motivated and with patience went from being afraid to take the mask off to doing flawless doff and dons calmly and with complete confidence. As a dm I told one woman on her checkouts, I was not involved in her pool training, that she had no business on scuba due to her anxiety and fear. The instructor got pissed at me for that. Too bad. The look of relief on her face was worth it. I will not, and in fact cannot train someone who can't swim. 200 yds, 10 minute tread, and 25 ft Uw swim is required to even start snorkel/skin diving training. Failure to obey safety protocols is a guaranteed fail. No redo no refund. Poor attitude towards safety and planning will get a fail as well. Lack of attention to buddy protocols during training will result in no card. In my classes and the conditions we train in necessitate good buddy procedures. Separation is not permitted nor expected even in low vis. If the vis is bad, say less than 5 ft, I will only take 2 students at a time. They are expected to not get separated. If they do they fail that dive and it must be redone. It has not happened yet because of the emphasis that is placed on buddy skills and the amount of practice they get with them. From day one in the swim tests. I will also not sell certs. I provide training as long as the student is making and honest effort. Certs are earned.

 

[pixiefish]

k ellis - I'm not an instructor nor even that experienced a diver, but relating this to informed consent issues I deal with daily in other aspects of my life - in the situation you describe, did those OW students really understand the implications of the conditions they were getting themselves into? It sounds from your post that it's lucky nothing went seriously wrong really, students going missing and whatnot. Should it not be the instructors role there to say, folks, conditions are not suitable today, course is cancelled and reschedule - the students may repeatedly say they want to go ahead, but lack the comprehension of what it is they really want to go ahead with.

Just a little bit of devil's advocate there.

 

[CamG]

Greetings K ellis and the instructor I assist is much like Jim the classroom, pool, and OW check out dives are full of emphasis on the afore mentioned skills and safety standards.
I have witnessed people scared to death with anxiety levels far beyond safety!
They do not make it past the pool till they demonstrate the ability to perform the skills with a level of comfort.
It takes more pool sessions then so be it, building "good" divers takes time and building "great" divers takes commitment!
I was fortunate enough to train with such an instructor or I would have washed out in the pool before I ever got to the check out dives.

Reasons I have witnessed for failure;
1. Give up! Lack of commitment to continue training.
2. Safety violations
a. Falsified documents
b. Unable to pass skills and place themselves and or buddy in danger.
c. Panic "bolting for the surface"
3. Ear problems

A few thoughts on anxiety.
First if it is not beyond normal levels and can drive people to overcome it and perform quite well.
A Instructor is to know the difference and I can attest from assisting YOU CAN TELL when someone is not able to function.
They are no longer able to make decisions and need to take a break or end the training all together.
I have witnessed both but have watched many people struggle to overcome and succeed! NO GREATER FEELING IN THE WORLD IS TO BE A PART OF THIS VICTORY!
The chains fall from them and the smile lights many dark days!
In the same token it is saddening to see someone yield who you know could conquer.

There are some who participate in dive training for other reasons spouse, family member who are totally miserable we have trained them but tried to communicate also that if they are miserable there are other pursuits that they would enjoy.
I have always been a ALL or NOTHING kind of guy and thrive in environments that require commitment.
If I struggle with issues I am going to dig in and conquer it!
Then it is off to the next battle!
This attitude has taken me to the place where I am today.
That is what I tried to pass on to students.

CamG Keep diving....Keep training....Keep learning!

 

[knotical]

I've failed to successfully train some.

A lady pressured into class by her boyfriend. She never mastered mask clearing.

A youngster unable to equalize.

A referral to me who was afraid of the water.

Two kids with learning disabilities. They never passed academics.

One who just stopped coming, and didn't return phone calls. Had been doing well.

Had several more who required multiple extra pool sessions. Also had some take ill (and one injured) during a class, but later succeed.

With patience (or a pretense thereof by me) I've been fortunate with the majority.

 

[gypsyjim]

My gf failed her first try at OW. Anxiety wore her down each time she tried. She has a bit of technology and equipment phobia, which left her always struggling. She would get so wired, nerous that she couldn't complete a dive because she had worn herself out with worry and what if's.

She tried several times to retake her open water classes, but eventually ran out of time. This after trying to do referral dives in several warm water resorts, in the hopes that diving in warmer water would make it easier.

I will say she was determined tho. She wanted to dive with me pretty badly, and was already an avid snorkeler.

She, went right back at it, and tried a second round of PADI OW with another course director who was willing to do extra work (and there was a lot of it) with her to help her work through her anxieties and become comfortable in the gear and under the water.

That was @5 years ago, and she has @85 dives under her belt now, post cert, and is becoming ever better as a diver and as a dive buddy. We kid that it took her 5 years, in 5 different countries to earn her OW, but earn it she did.

 

[Bogtrotter]

In my O/W, which I did ten years ago, only three of the about a dozen students that started the course actually received c-cards. Not sure why so many dropped out throughout the course, the instructor was great and very thorough. A couple of the people on the check-outs that didn't pass had ear and sinus problems, one in fact had a bad nose bleed.