Not part of Greater China

[ScubaSam]

Actually, I gave the matter over to the Advisors to consider. ScubaBoard is better run by consensus rather than me being a benign dictator.

My mother was born in Peking and was detained by the Japanese there during WWII (European Detention Camp). I called her to get her perspective, and it was interesting to say the least.

Pete - I'd like to hear your mother's thought if you're comfortable sharing with us online. If not, we can have a fire-side chat at BTS.

 

[iztok]

You don't need international standards to understand what a group of people think about themselves. They have formed a government, laws and defend their borders for decades. I have spent many months working there and also in China and have at least a basic understanding of their beliefs although I am far from an expert.

Since when do we deal with beliefs and not facts?

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Since when do we deal with beliefs and not facts?

This is politics and national pride, beliefs are probably stronger than facts here. Just like religion, if you ignore them or belittle them, you just add heat to the fire.

In the s/w world, I have to convert my code to use a traditional version of the Chinese characters for Taiwan rather than use the simplified character set in China. The engineers in Taiwan can read both, but to force them to use the PRC style text is an irritant to them.

In this case, recognizing them as a separate entity cost nothing. So why not?

 

[iztok]

This is politics and national pride, beliefs are probably stronger than facts here. Just like religion, if you ignore them or belittle them, you just add heat to the fire.

So you seem to be a strong supporter of irrational beliefs and irrational requests?

What does it cost us? Only rational thought. I guess that is a small price to pay for appeasement.

 

[Rhone Man]

You guys seem to be conflating two entirely different questions:

Is Taiwan properly regarded as an independent country (lots of opinions - people hold strong views - we could argue for years and never resolve).

Should SB have a separate forum for Taiwanese divers (very different question - are there issues which relate to Taiwanese diving/divers that justifies them having their own discrete forum? After all, pretty much all of Africa gets lumped together into one forum. Presumably it partly depends on how many Taiwanese divers we have and how active they are on SB. I have never heard Vladimir complain that Hong Kong deserves its own sub-forum although it has a very active diving community and the rest of the PRC has virtually none. Greek divers and Turkish divers are forced to share a (largely inactive) forum even though the countries loathe each other).

I have no dog in this fight. But deciding practical issues based on emotive arguments is a quick road to ruin.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete - I'd like to hear your mother's thought if you're comfortable sharing with us online. If not, we can have a fire-side chat at BTS.

She said that while she lived in China that Taiwan was considered to be deficient: a mongrel or a half breed. This is quite probably because of the Japanese occupation. There was quite a bit of bias against the Chinese who lived there as they were considered almost defectors. They were often characterized as being ignorant, brash and stupid and many thought it a great joke that Taiwan tried to secede from the mainland.

But they were very successful businessmen and inventors. Their unmitigated success became a huge embarrassment to the to the communist regimes of mainland China. It became imperative that they bring this part of China back into the fold. But the early rejection gave them their own national identity, and they have largely retained that. Rather than being the butt of the joke with the resulting scorn and derision, they are the cream of the crop. In fact, there are more doctorates per capita in Taiwan than in any other country. However, Hong Kong has the greatest doctorate per capita of any city. I don't remember where I got this from, but it made sense at the time.

In reality, we don't try to define political markers as much as we try to discern how and where people dive. Is the diving off of Formosa that much different than the mainland? Perhaps, and possibly we should call it Ilha Formosa if the advisors decide to create a new forum for it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Just a thought, but is it possible to divide up the region by body of water? East China Sea, South China Sea, Yellow Sea, etc.? It occurs to me that "Red Sea" has long been a sub-forum, and one can dive from Egypt, Israel (er, or Palestine, depending on your political orientation), Sudan, etc.

 

[vladimir]

I have never heard Vladimir complain that Hong Kong deserves its own sub-forum although it has a very active diving community and the rest of the PRC has virtually none.

The political situation in the special administrative regions is clear to all parties, and explicitly reserves matters of foreign policy and defense--the two most obvious criteria of sovereignty--to the PRC. This is quite distinct from Taiwan's situation.

 

[vladimir]

I have never heard Vladimir complain that Hong Kong deserves its own sub-forum although it has a very active diving community and the rest of the PRC has virtually none.

The political situation in the special administrative regions is clear to all parties, and explicitly reserves matters of foreign policy and defense--the two most obvious criteria of sovereignty--to the PRC. Neither Macao nor Hong Kong was autonomous before becoming special administrative regions of the PRC. This is quite distinct from Taiwan, which obviously conducts its own defense and foreign policy.

Wantonmien made a persuasive non-political argument for the Taiwan forum here:

To add a little - and a few additonal "pro's" and thoughts for a "Taiwan" only forum -

I understand how polarizing politics can be, but Taiwan today is like Sudetenland in 1938...or was that Tibet? Either way, it's something we free people should mostly agree on, and we should resist the aggression at every opportunity.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

So you seem to be a strong supporter of irrational beliefs and irrational requests?

What does it cost us? Only rational thought. I guess that is a small price to pay for appeasement.

Appeasement! The only ones being appeased by the current politics are the ones who seek to oppress and rule over a free people.