OXTOX limits - MOD, PPO2 or CNS Clock?

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Having written a reply to the 'What role does OxTox play in recreational diving?' thread (which has just been closed?), I thought I would transfer it here for discussion, as it raises some valid points..

1)the primary cause of Oxygen Toxicity episodes are from violating the CNS "Oxygen Clock" - Ox Tox is from not just exposure to high PO2's but also TIME AT that high PO2. Do not exceed 100% of the OXYGEN CLOCK. At 1.6 PPO2, your time is only 45 minutes... So it's extremely difficult to even do that on a recreational dive. Perhaps it comes across as me being harsh, but to hear the same rhetoric being so passionately and incorrectly tossed around makes me ill.

Technically, you do hit the nail on the head with this. However, it is important to remember why the MoD limits were introduced and, then, subsequently made progessively more and more shallower as more diving statistics became available over the decades.

MoD is calculated as the depth at which a given breathing gas reaches 1.4PPO2. When a diver exceeds that MoD (or more importantly, that PPO2) their STATISTICAL likelihood begins to increase dramatically.

It is not a case that you "WILL" convulse at 1.4 or 1.6 PPO2.... it is a case that you COULD convulse under those circumstances.

The diving community has agreed, by consensus, that divers ideally should not exceed the statistical likelihood of OXTOX that exists beyond PPO2 of 1.4. The line has to be drawn somewhere and, after decades of diving, THAT is where the line was drawn.

It may be simplistic to define OXTOX prevention in terms of adherance to max PPO2/MoD, rather than focusing on the CNS Clock, but it is also a very effective approach that goes a long way to increasing diver safety AND developing an attitude of conservatism in dive planning/conduct.

It is also important to remember that the onset of OXTOX is also heavily influenced by numerous (and mostly not yet understood) physiological and physical factors that differ with every diver and every dive. In that respect, a conservative approach to limiting PPO2/MoD as a 'baseline' to OXTOX avoidance seems, IMHO, to be wise.

1)It's just EASIER to teach, "don't exceed 1.6 PPO2" EVER or you will die, than it is to explain that you can use the oxygen clock and provide the information of that to plan dives within the window of acceptability. ;)

I disagree that the issuance of strict MOD/PPO2 limits is about easing the burden of the dive educator... especially as we 'should' be teaching students about CNS toxicity anyway. ;)

MODs and PPO2 limits are about saying to students "This is the line that will keep you safe. Overstep that line and things could go fatally wrong for you."
 
Apparently this topic is too hot to discuss here without some people getting their panties in a wad.

The point I was trying to make was that the immediate "VIOLATION OF YOUR MOD" would most likely not result in an instant ox tox seizure. It's unfortunate for the forum that the entire thread was completely deleted from ScubaBoard, so that even me with Admin rights can't find it. :shakehead:
 
MoD is calculated as the depth at which a given breathing gas reaches 1.4PPO2. When a diver exceeds that MoD (or more importantly, that PPO2) their STATISTICAL likelihood begins to increase dramatically.

Yes... Of course. However... The function of TIME at that PO2 is important to the equation. People are even afraid to make a rescue where they'd exceed 1.6 PPO2 because of the way they are taught about Ox Tox. If you ask me; the scare tactic is a little too much.

It is not a case that you "WILL" convulse at 1.4 or 1.6 PPO2.... it is a case that you COULD convulse under those circumstances.

of course. Not to mention... you COULD do any number of things on any dive at any given time. Again; it's the SCARE THE CRAP out of the student approach rather than the "give all of the facts"

The diving community has agreed, by consensus, that divers ideally should not exceed the statistical likelihood of OXTOX that exists beyond PPO2 of 1.4. The line has to be drawn somewhere and, after decades of diving, THAT is where the line was drawn.

I don't disagree with adherence to the numbers. I think that there's no reason to PLAN a dive to beyond 1.4 PPO2 for the working portion of the dive. Again, it's the whole "VIOLATION OF MOD MAY CAUSE IMMEDIATE DEATH" approach to education.

It may be simplistic to define OXTOX prevention in terms of adherance to max PPO2/MoD, rather than focusing on the CNS Clock, but it is also a very effective approach that goes a long way to increasing diver safety AND developing an attitude of conservatism in dive planning/conduct.

It is also important to remember that the onset of OXTOX is also heavily influenced by numerous (and mostly not yet understood) physiological and physical factors that differ with every diver and every dive. In that respect, a conservative approach to limiting PPO2/MoD as a 'baseline' to OXTOX avoidance seems, IMHO, to be wise.

Again... Yes.

But again... shouldn't the entire picture be explained to students, rather than the "lets only give them the information they need to survive" approach?

And Again... people are even afraid to make a rescue, or go deeper than 1.6 for even a second. There's numerous threads here on SB where this topic comes up, and this is the situation. I would venture a guess than many more people believe that they could face instant death if they hit a PPO2 of 2.0 than the number of people who realize that you could spend a few minutes at that kind of exposure if the emergency arose.

I disagree that the issuance of strict MOD/PPO2 limits is about easing the burden of the dive educator... especially as we 'should' be teaching students about CNS toxicity anyway. ;)

MODs and PPO2 limits are about saying to students "This is the line that will keep you safe. Overstep that line and things could go fatally wrong for you."

Yes. The key word is SHOULD :)
 
Both of you seem to be taking a sensible approach and students as the name infers need to be educated. Understanding the logical and guidelines behind something is important. The tools of MOD and CNS clock need to be understood and are tools.

Tools and guidelines just like tables and a max sport diving depth of 130'. When a dive plan is broken then the dive is over and you should start in on your contingency plan to keep withing safer limits, which is most likely ending the dive as soon as possible.

-loss of buddy
-time exceeded
-depth exceeded
-CNS clock exceeded
-MOD exceeded
-finding sea conditions harsher than expected

If you can't articulate these things you shouldn't be teaching the course. I didn't read the thread so probably.......:deadhorse:

-matt
 
MoD is calculated as the depth at which a given breathing gas reaches 1.4PPO2. When a diver exceeds that MoD (or more importantly, that PPO2) their STATISTICAL likelihood begins to increase dramatically.

My O2 tanks have "Oxygen 20" on them.
My 50% tank has MOD 70

Do I need to change the labels? :D
 
You're pushin' it buddy!:D
 
:eyebrow: With respect to recreational diving......

MoD is calculated as the depth at which a given breathing gas reaches 1.4PPO2. When a diver exceeds that MoD (or more importantly, that PPO2) their STATISTICAL likelihood begins to increase dramatically.


(sorry, had originally aimed for that to be posted in a recreational diving discussion, but was too idle to edit it when I created the new thread :D)
 
CNS clock is great and all...except for the part about divers toxing well before 100% and not toxing well after 100%.

Ok, I don't think its great. Its not valid whatsoever.
 
Much more valid than decompression tables and algorithms. Much lower incidence of undeserved O2 hits than DCS hits.
 
CNS clock is great and all...except for the part about divers toxing well before 100% and not toxing well after 100%.

Ok, I don't think its great. Its not valid whatsoever.

Ok wiseguy. Should divers have such a fear of going beyond a 1.6 PO2 that they would opt NOT to rescue a buddy who has gone deeper than their "MOD"?? Which btw, I've seen people post this scenario: "What else could I do? I didn't want to go deeper than my MOD even though my buddy appeared to be in trouble"

How many divers have toxed by NOT exceeding the 100%?

Shouldn't people at least have the benefit of WHY 1.6 is the agreed upon MOD, rather than the general methodology of teaching students to avoid at all costs "violating the MOD or you will die" approach that is the norm.
 

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