The State of Diving

[ScubaFeenD]

You are right. Everyone I talk to that is involved with either GUE or UTD training always says, "I wish I knew about this when I first got certified." I too am in the same situation financially, but I am lucky enough to be able to acquire the necessary gear, which has really made the difference. I have learned a lot from just watching the 5thD-X videos and trying myself though, so dont knock it too much

Regardless, I think if from the beginning standards were high and basic skills were really taught well, the necessity of going to GUE and UTD just to learn skills to be competent as a diver would be gone. This is somewhat related to the OPs post regarding the standards of what makes a diver today. Im not saying UTD and GUE are the only places to go (certainly I have seen many PADI and NAUI instructors on this board that claim to teach many of the same basic skills that are in fundamentals), but they seem to be the agencies responsible for really pushing the need for competent entry level divers.

I don't disagree with any of that, but when I thought "I should learn to dive", I didn't walk around local places and find a GUE shop that offered me a BP/W. I found NAUI, PADI and SDI shops that offered me BCs with integrated weights. So, right after OW, most of my friends had large amounts of gear that was incompatible with basically no resale value. The scalability of the gear that they already didn't buy is no longer a real selling point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the true cost of GUE-F to the "50-100 dive rec diver" (gear+training) seems to be about $1500-$2000. Good training costs good money, and I don't have a problem with that, but if the money's not there, flopping around in the water with 5thdx YouTube videos seems like the only option.

On a personal level, I'm hoping to take primer, essentials or fundies at some point in the next year, once I can find the money. However, my gear setup is currently "stuff I found on craigslist for $20 and SB DIYers helped me fix", and there's very little DIR-style gear being sold significantly below value (presumably because people buying that sort of gear have passed the dropout point).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

On a personal level, I'm hoping to take primer, essentials or fundies at some point in the next year, once I can find the money. However, my gear setup is currently "stuff I found on craigslist for $20 and SB DIYers helped me fix", and there's very little DIR-style gear being sold significantly below value (presumably because people buying that sort of gear have passed the dropout point).

You'd be surprised ... I've known several folks who got into diving in a big way, went through the DIR progression in a big way, marinated in the kool-aid, acquired all sorts of doubles, deco bottles, stages, scooters, etc, etc, etc ... then burned out in 3 or 4 years, sold all their scuba gear, and moved on to being "the best" at some other recreational activity.

People drop out for all sorts of reasons ... often it boils down to personalities or what else is going on in their life. One of my formerly favorite dive buddies dropped all his gear at my house a couple months back and asked me to help him sell it ... he's been in the water three times since his daughter was born in January 2007 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lavachickie]

Unfortunately, as far as I know, these techniques aren't taught in most OW classes. Looking at course descriptions in my area, I only see it in TDI's Intro Tech description, which is unlikely to appeal to general recreational divers. ScubaBoard has made me aware of GUE and UTD's offerings, both of which appear significantly more expensive than the NAUI/PADI/TDI courses and both of which appear to require specific gear choices.

I'm a new cold water diver (lt one year) who is PADI OW and AOW. With around 30 dives under my belt since the start of the year, I find myself... wanting. I stumbled upon UTD at a dive/travel show recently, and spent some time talking with the people there. I'm looking at the Essentials class; if you break down $$$ divided by hours of training (in and out of water) it's actually more for less if my math is right. And the only requirements are solid fins and a 7 ft hose on your reg. Both of those can be rented.

I've talked about this plan to explore with a few people, and reactions are interesting; it's nothing short of a religious war. I'm not looking for dogma, just a look at diving from a more methodical viewpoint. I've found my rec training experience to be a little too lax. Yes, diving should be fun, but that doesn't mean you should forgo a basic level of competency just to get a c-card in someone's hand. I've dove with divers who didn't understand the hand signal for "gas check."

Seriously? No thanks.

 

[TSandM]

You get a lot of strong negative responses when you talk about getting DIR training. I think it's multifactorial. Part of it is memory of a day when some DIR divers (and unfortunately too often those on line) were elitist snobs. Part of it is a bunch of true misunderstanding of what the system is, focusing on "You have to have Halcyon stuff and all the same" when really, it's the procedures that are the heart of the system, and gear is only one part. Part of it is that people perceive that having to standardize their gear and procedures is taking away their right to choose -- when, in fact, it is a CHOICE to standardize, and at least in my opinion, a choice which gives back a lot more than it takes away.

Don't let the naysayers get to you. DIR is a lovely way to dive.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

I don't disagree with any of that, but when I thought "I should learn to dive", I didn't walk around local places and find a GUE shop that offered me a BP/W. I found NAUI, PADI and SDI shops that offered me BCs with integrated weights. So, right after OW, most of my friends had large amounts of gear that was incompatible with basically no resale value. The scalability of the gear that they already didn't buy is no longer a real selling point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the true cost of GUE-F to the "50-100 dive rec diver" (gear+training) seems to be about $1500-$2000. Good training costs good money, and I don't have a problem with that, but if the money's not there, flopping around in the water with 5thdx YouTube videos seems like the only option.

On a personal level, I'm hoping to take primer, essentials or fundies at some point in the next year, once I can find the money. However, my gear setup is currently "stuff I found on craigslist for $20 and SB DIYers helped me fix", and there's very little DIR-style gear being sold significantly below value (presumably because people buying that sort of gear have passed the dropout point).

It's damned expensive, no two ways about it. Advanced training, equipment and even breathing gas (depending on gas and your location in the world) can be eye-wideningly expensive. But there always a way to save your wallet from being TOO gutted...as NWGratefulDiver said, lots of folks periodically shed their gear if they decide to quit diving altogether or even as they upgrade their equipment (people going from open circuit diving to closed-circuit rebreathers, for example). You'll see computers, canister lights, reels, tanks, drysuits, wings and backplates all going for comparitively cheap prices for various reasons. Check out SB's Classifieds section or (if you haven't already) log on to The Deco Stop and check out their 'Wanted to Sell/Buy' pages. Great stuff. Have a chat with your UTD/GUE/whatever instructor and get his/her views on equipment...that way, you'll know what to look for in the classifieds sections and so on, as well as determine what constitutes a decent second-hand price.

 

[GrandpaScuba]

... and why I believe we should return to 6 - 8 days of classroom AND pool sessions per day followed by 5 open water dives ... and why I think the standards for DM's and instructors need to go back to being higher so that only truly skilled divers are teaching others ... etc., etc., etc.

I agree but in my part of the country it is pretty standard to pay instructors $50 flat rate per student, and assistants get nothing but a hardy handshake. You can raise the qualifications, but if you don't start paying instructors better than slave wages, no ones going to put forth the time and money to meet those higher standards.

In our area, everyone has gotten used to the $89 special Open Water classes. The stores are terrified of charging more, 'cause the other stores will continue the old prices and they'll lose out. You can talk all you want about telling folks their paying for better quality, but the buying public still goes for cheap over quality any time.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

I agree but in my part of the country it is pretty standard to pay instructors $50 flat rate per student, and assistants get nothing but a hardy handshake. You can raise the qualifications, but if you don't start paying instructors better than slave wages, no ones going to put forth the time and money to meet those higher standards.

In our area, everyone has gotten used to the $89 special Open Water classes. The stores are terrified of charging more, 'cause the other stores will continue the old prices and they'll lose out. You can talk all you want about telling folks their paying for better quality, but the buying public still goes for cheap over quality any time.

On the contrary, I think it is all about how you sell your course. If a dive shop said, "hey, we are more expensive, but you are really competent and well trained coming out of our classes," instead of just catering to the coral-kicker-to-bes then they would be able to charge more. How many people come on SB asking "what is the best agency," and are answered with, "instructor is more important." Well, if a dive shop made it more about education and less about pushing the next c-card for cheap we might not be in the situation we are in now with the divers barely able to breath through a regulator. I know I looked high and low when i first got certified, and I found the best that I could. Getting back into the sport now, I am just happy I found GUE and UTD regardless of what the naysayers think, because now I know what I am missing and through them have met some really amazing instructors.

I read an article recently that hi-lighted the problem in the dive industry of charging high prices for gear (in store) but always discounting the certs to the point of them barely making competent divers. It should be the other way around, with shops offering huge discounts on gear and charging a fair price and offering great education and not some watered down version. This training isnt just to have fun, its to save your life--why is everyone so ready to skimp on that?

 

[TSandM]

When I got certified to dive, I had no idea there were different agencies. I had no clue that diving was an activity that required skill (and unfortunately, I didn't come out of OW knowing that, either). I had no idea that diving would become something central in my life. I DID understand that it was something with safety issues, so I don't think I would have gone looking for the shortest class, but basically, I got certified where I did because the shop was five minutes from my house, and the class schedule fit with my work days.

If they had told me my OW class would take weeks and cost me $1500, I would have passed and gone back to riding horses.

I understand the value of such classes NOW. I think I MIGHT be able to talk someone who was pretty darned sure they were going to be an active diver into such a class. But someone who's going on a cruise to the South Pacific and wants to do a few dives? Not so much.

We're not going to transform the diving education industry into GUE classes. So what we have to do is try to educate consumers and instructors that it is possible to deliver a better quality OW class under CURRENT conditions. And it is. At the very least, someone like me should have come out of her OW class inspired by superb role models.

 

[k374]

You can talk all you want about telling folks their paying for better quality, but the buying public still goes for cheap over quality any time.

I paid somewhere around $800 for my OW course (I went private with the boat dive because the group class was a joke)... the average price of an OW course in my area is around $400-600. Never heard of a $89 OW class.

 

[diverrex]

When I got certified to dive, I had no idea there were different agencies. I had no clue that diving was an activity that required skill (and unfortunately, I didn't come out of OW knowing that, either). I had no idea that diving would become something central in my life. I DID understand that it was something with safety issues, so I don't think I would have gone looking for the shortest class, but basically, I got certified where I did because the shop was five minutes from my house, and the class schedule fit with my work days.

If they had told me my OW class would take weeks and cost me $1500, I would have passed and gone back to riding horses.

I understand the value of such classes NOW. I think I MIGHT be able to talk someone who was pretty darned sure they were going to be an active diver into such a class. But someone who's going on a cruise to the South Pacific and wants to do a few dives? Not so much.

We're not going to transform the diving education industry into GUE classes. So what we have to do is try to educate consumers and instructors that it is possible to deliver a better quality OW class under CURRENT conditions. And it is. At the very least, someone like me should have come out of her OW class inspired by superb role models.

I could have written the first two paragraphs word for word to describe my OW training search and experience, except instead of going back to horses it would have been kayaking, or hiking or something else. And I totally agree with the third paragraph, even knowing what I know now it would be tough sell to someone who doesn't know how involved they want to get with scuba to commit to the longer course. There is no way I ever would have gotten my warm water vacation diving only wife to take weeks and $1,500 for a different OW course. And I think this is a fairly common situation with new divers. The shop I did my OW with (a quick two weekend course) also teaches GUE courses with a very well respected instructor on staff. I've never asked them but from the emails they put out on new students I'm guessing it's at least 20 - 1 if not more of their students take the two weekend course versus GUE class. There is no simple answer to getting new divers trained better, definitely better instructors, DM's not just being tour guides but being mentors to improve diver skill, emphasis on continued diver education but with real training not just 5 more dives with an instructor, OP's enforcing no touching the reef or wildlife policies, etc.