OldNSalty:
Of course it's a basic skill. I agree that in many classes it isn't taught or at least not enough time to practice it is allotted. That's doesn't stop it from being a basic skill.
What is "basic scuba"?
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Of course it's a basic skill. I agree that in many classes it isn't taught or at least not enough time to practice it is allotted. That's doesn't stop it from being a basic skill.
Which is what I am trying to express... the basics of these skills are being taught in OW classes today. (Well, maybe not the non-silting kicks.) Neutral bouyancy is taught in every OW class out there. Where is the proficiency line drawn? Is the expectation really that somebody straight out of OW should be able to join TS&M on her dive and for the entire hour, not kick up any silt, always know where everybody is, communicate passively, and hover motionless in ten to 20 minute increments? Could any of us have done that after our OW class? I know I could have after a LOT more practice, but I would not have been able to it for the entire time after my OW class. I know that while I may have given it a great shot, I probably would have missed something in that time... so would I have failed OW then?
I believe that it does go back to several factors... sure there are lazy instructors out there, and time constraints driven by 'the industry' and I am not trying to excuse that behavior or practice... but there has got to be a line someplace where we say, 'Student, you are good enough to not be a danger to yourself, others, or the environment... here is your card.'
Neutral buoyancy in the form of fin pivots? That is barely the beginning. There is no reason why students cannot being performing skills in midwater before they hit OW checkouts. Fin pivots are still contact with the bottom. They do not promote horizontal trim, nor neutral buoyancy. In order for students to have a real starting point to work from they need to be shown and actually perform in good trim, neutral, and in midwater. I do not demo any skills kneeling. All are done hovering in front of the students in a horizontal position. They then have a practical example and a goal to shoot for. Having them do fin pivots and telling them they SHOULD be horizontal and hovering is not a good example. There is a post about a student in a peak performance buoyancy class telling how the instructor did NOT want him trying to perform in midwater, neutral, and horizontal. That is ridiculous and very sad.
That line is already in existence for a conscientious instructor. It is the time when the student is competent enough to plan, execute, and return safely from a dive with a buddy of equal skill in conditions similar to or better than that in which they have trained and not damage the environment. It is also when the instructor would be ok with that student diving with one of the instructors loved ones with no professional present. Then and only then will I issue a certification to that student. Until then they should be in the pool not in OW.
That line is already in existence for a conscientious instructor. It is the time when the student is competent enough to plan, execute, and return safely from a dive with a buddy of equal skill in conditions similar to or better than that in which they have trained and not damage the environment. It is also when the instructor would be ok with that student diving with one of the instructors loved ones with no professional present. Then and only then will I issue a certification to that student. Until then they should be in the pool not in OW.
These skills are not that difficult. Any diver can get it pretty quickly. They can certainly get them down before certification.
Kiwi Sean
Guest
Interesting thread!
I think that buoyancy (and to a lesser extent, trim*) should be considered basic skills. That said, because of the way that I was trained (all skills on knees on the sea bed, instructors typicallay swimming with 45-60 degree angles in their trim) for the first 20ish dives that I did, I had no idea that it wasn't acceptable to be crashing into the bottom. Or that it was possible to dive with a horizontal trim.
Then I met a couple of people who aspired to better things. Both of them had done AndyNZ's Self Reliant Diver course (one has also done fundies now), and they were fantastic role models. Their care for the environment and control in the water inspired me to work really hard on my buoyancy and trim. 50 dives later, I think I am getting somewhere in terms of my own buoyancy control and trim.
I recently did Andy's SRD course, and both the course, and the way that Andy dives, opened my eyes to the way that things could be done... it was the first course I have done that EVERY skill HAD to be done neutral in mid water column. None of the skills were particularly challenging in their own right (many were basic OW skills), but the task loading and being off the bottom made them more difficult. Truely eye opening.
My point (sorry about the long winded post) is that while good buoyancy and trim should be basic skills, in my limited experience they aren't emphasised enough either in training or in the way that some "role models" dive. Its a classic case of monkey see, monkey do. But monkey has to see first. I am just glad that I met people who showed me the light before my bad habits got too ingrained.
Sean
* while trim is important, I wonder if it is the be all and end all? is it not more important to be aware of the trim you are in, and be happy that it is appropriate for the conditions you are diving in (and be able to control your trim)?
I think that buoyancy (and to a lesser extent, trim*) should be considered basic skills. That said, because of the way that I was trained (all skills on knees on the sea bed, instructors typicallay swimming with 45-60 degree angles in their trim) for the first 20ish dives that I did, I had no idea that it wasn't acceptable to be crashing into the bottom. Or that it was possible to dive with a horizontal trim.
Then I met a couple of people who aspired to better things. Both of them had done AndyNZ's Self Reliant Diver course (one has also done fundies now), and they were fantastic role models. Their care for the environment and control in the water inspired me to work really hard on my buoyancy and trim. 50 dives later, I think I am getting somewhere in terms of my own buoyancy control and trim.
I recently did Andy's SRD course, and both the course, and the way that Andy dives, opened my eyes to the way that things could be done... it was the first course I have done that EVERY skill HAD to be done neutral in mid water column. None of the skills were particularly challenging in their own right (many were basic OW skills), but the task loading and being off the bottom made them more difficult. Truely eye opening.
My point (sorry about the long winded post) is that while good buoyancy and trim should be basic skills, in my limited experience they aren't emphasised enough either in training or in the way that some "role models" dive. Its a classic case of monkey see, monkey do. But monkey has to see first. I am just glad that I met people who showed me the light before my bad habits got too ingrained.
Sean
* while trim is important, I wonder if it is the be all and end all? is it not more important to be aware of the trim you are in, and be happy that it is appropriate for the conditions you are diving in (and be able to control your trim)?
The skills are basic, but the OP was describing "Advanced" ability as described by Jarrod Jablonski, pg 34 of "Doing It Right: The Fundamentals of Better Diving" and if I'm not mistaken the OP has technical training, technical gear, and over 500 dives.
In fact, her description may even refer to an "Advanced Technical Diver" if she was wearing her full rig.
In fact, her description may even refer to an "Advanced Technical Diver" if she was wearing her full rig.
So if she was diving an AL80, a regular BCD, and using an AIR2 for a backup would the description/expectations of the skills change?
* while trim is important, I wonder if it is the be all and end all? is it not more important to be aware of the trim you are in, and be happy that it is appropriate for the conditions you are diving in (and be able to control your trim)?
I cannot disagree with this. SOME conditions may indeed require other than horizontal trim. Standing on ones head to get a photo or look into place rather than laying on the reef or bottom are two such times. But in order to develop these skills you need to know what good trim is like and how to return to it. Swimming vertically when not necessary is the mark of poor training or laziness on the part of the diver.
I cannot disagree with this. SOME conditions may indeed require other than horizontal trim. Standing on ones head to get a photo or look into place rather than laying on the reef or bottom are two such times. But in order to develop these skills you need to know what good trim is like and how to return to it. Swimming vertically when not necessary is the mark of poor training or laziness on the part of the diver.
Kiwi Sean
Guest
thanks Jim... that captures the point I was trying to make perfectly.
OP
Yes, I do have a bunch of advanced training (thank goodness!) And no, I could not have done what we did the other night straight out of OW, or AOW, or Fundies either! (Although by that time, I was getting close.)
I've seen Peter's students, though, who were started differently, get a lot closer a lot faster than I did. I think buoyancy control and balance are basic skills, and more time ought to be spent on them, rather than advancing students to cameras, night diving, drift diving, etc. JMHO.
I've seen Peter's students, though, who were started differently, get a lot closer a lot faster than I did. I think buoyancy control and balance are basic skills, and more time ought to be spent on them, rather than advancing students to cameras, night diving, drift diving, etc. JMHO.
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