What I'd really like is for you to make a comment on the fact that the definition of sport has been watered down in a similar way to the way OW SCUBA courses have been watered down.
Diving Education Today
- Thread starter DCBC
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
- Messages
- 22,171
- Reaction score
- 2,802
- # of dives
- 5000 - ∞
I have no idea of what the camp does, it may be quite intense, I learned to drive at Phil Hill's operation up near Vallejo, that was rather intense and I suspect that motor camp is watered down in comparison. As you know, I agree that diver training has been watered down ... what else is new? Anyone got one of those newfangled sport pilot licenses?
beester
Contributor
Wow.. time zones at work here... I read up after work went to pooltraining.. It's now past midnight here and in a couple of hours 3 pages of posts 
Poor European me...ok some random thoughts from me... after some beers at pooltraining.
First of all... IMHO we should pay a bit attention to Solarstorm. Here we have a guy who took the typical resort OW course... but apparently the bug bit hard enought to retake the course with his daughter... and now planning on doing some cold water diving off vancouver island. He's reading scubaboard... he's trying to learn stuff himself. He's asking questions.. this is the guy I'm talking about. The guy who took OW... liked it but realised he needs to learn more... loves it and is going to dive more... realises then that he needs to improve his skills... and there we go... he 's climbing the mountain. (up to the level he wants to get... in a couple of years he maybe a regular poster on the decostop
). He did his OW in a resort... apparently it didn't kill him... but he's loving it enough to invest time and probably money to improve and dive.
Sport... no sport. Well it depends on definition I guess. If the definition includes the word 'COMPETITION' then diving will never be a sport. If it excludes this but includes 'PHYSICAL ACTIVITY' then it might.
In my club... we have about 100 members. We have 3 hours of pooltraining a week and about 40 to 50 participate. Part of them are busy training for the next certification level, the rest are organised in training groups. Relax, swimming and sport. A typical sport group training would go like this:
- Swim 500 yards in under 15 min
- A set of apnee drills. Swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 10 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 8 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 6 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 4 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 2 secs... etc and build back up to 10 secs
- fin 500 yards (with fins, lead, mask) in breaststroke in 8 min
- swim 8 pool lengths (25 m) at every end do 15 pushups
Why do we do all this silly stuff.. well because some of us are part of a underwater hokey team. And believe me that's sport. Underwater hockey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But even that is done only because it improves our physical fitness... which is a benefit in diving and of course because we can have a beer after pooltraining.
Back to the question at hand:
A question from me to all of you.
Safety is more or less sorted in the current setup. Resort divers are not killed in droves. Maybe they are lucky, maybe the DM knows his job, maybe it's just hard to get killed in 30 feet of tropical water unless you hold your breath. If people were killed alot states would regulate things under pressure from public opinion and the diving industry would suffer economic setback because mom and pop resort people no longer want to try diving but go donkey riding.
However when you look at diving in general (just a feel no numbers to back this up)most of OW certified divers only dive once... or only on holiday (not regularly).Why is that??? Is this linked to bad training? To feeling uncomfortable in water.. or is this linked to basic mentality?
Anyway of to bed... have fun guys and I'll read up tomorrow evening
Poor European me...ok some random thoughts from me... after some beers at pooltraining.
First of all... IMHO we should pay a bit attention to Solarstorm. Here we have a guy who took the typical resort OW course... but apparently the bug bit hard enought to retake the course with his daughter... and now planning on doing some cold water diving off vancouver island. He's reading scubaboard... he's trying to learn stuff himself. He's asking questions.. this is the guy I'm talking about. The guy who took OW... liked it but realised he needs to learn more... loves it and is going to dive more... realises then that he needs to improve his skills... and there we go... he 's climbing the mountain. (up to the level he wants to get... in a couple of years he maybe a regular poster on the decostop
). He did his OW in a resort... apparently it didn't kill him... but he's loving it enough to invest time and probably money to improve and dive. Sport... no sport. Well it depends on definition I guess. If the definition includes the word 'COMPETITION' then diving will never be a sport. If it excludes this but includes 'PHYSICAL ACTIVITY' then it might.
In my club... we have about 100 members. We have 3 hours of pooltraining a week and about 40 to 50 participate. Part of them are busy training for the next certification level, the rest are organised in training groups. Relax, swimming and sport. A typical sport group training would go like this:
- Swim 500 yards in under 15 min
- A set of apnee drills. Swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 10 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 8 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 6 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 4 secs, swim 25 m underwater, recuperate 2 secs... etc and build back up to 10 secs
- fin 500 yards (with fins, lead, mask) in breaststroke in 8 min
- swim 8 pool lengths (25 m) at every end do 15 pushups
Why do we do all this silly stuff.. well because some of us are part of a underwater hokey team. And believe me that's sport. Underwater hockey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But even that is done only because it improves our physical fitness... which is a benefit in diving and of course because we can have a beer after pooltraining
.Back to the question at hand:
A question from me to all of you.
Safety is more or less sorted in the current setup. Resort divers are not killed in droves. Maybe they are lucky, maybe the DM knows his job, maybe it's just hard to get killed in 30 feet of tropical water unless you hold your breath. If people were killed alot states would regulate things under pressure from public opinion and the diving industry would suffer economic setback because mom and pop resort people no longer want to try diving but go donkey riding.
However when you look at diving in general (just a feel no numbers to back this up)most of OW certified divers only dive once... or only on holiday (not regularly).Why is that??? Is this linked to bad training? To feeling uncomfortable in water.. or is this linked to basic mentality?
Anyway of to bed... have fun guys and I'll read up tomorrow evening
rstofer
Contributor
However when you look at diving in general (just a feel no numbers to back this up)most of OW certified divers only dive once... or only on holiday (not regularly).Why is that??? Is this linked to bad training? To feeling uncomfortable in water.. or is this linked to basic mentality?
Anyway of to bed... have fun guys and I'll read up tomorrow evening
I think that a lot of people are enticed into diving by thoughts of warm water and pretty fish. Then they take their training at Monterey...
Heavy gear, lots of lead, a 7mm wetsuit, beach entries, long surface swims, crappy viz, cold water, Sea Nettles, virtually nothing to see (Breakwater near the pier), a long swim back and the ever popular face-plant when they get knocked down in the surf. Yes sir, this is glamorous!
Why would anybody volunteer to do it again?
For this type of diving, you need a little more dedication. And you either have it or you don't.
It's far easier to just walk away with your c-card and considering diving anywhere else.
Better yet, let's play golf.
Richard
Unfortunate, but true. The sad thing is that Monterey/Carmel diving can be incredibly rewarding, but you definitely have to be pretty dedicated to see it. On the upside, it's incredibly uplifting when you see somebody come out of their OW class and you can just tell that they're going to end up being a reasonably dedicated NorCal diver.
I don't know if it's the gap between expectations and reality that puts people off.
When I got certified, I had no intention of ever setting foot in Puget Sound. I had told my husband I would do the pool and classroom work in Seattle, and then he was going to take me to his father's in Maui to do the dives, because I wasn't getting in that cold water. Not ever.
Well, of course, I did . . . and I froze my butt off in a leaking dry suit, to the point where I was rather ill at the end of two dives. I have asked myself many times why I went on with it. But I did, and ended up getting completely addicted to the sport. If you had interviewed me beforehand, I don't think you could have predicted that I would become an avid diver. I hate being cold more than anything in the whole world; I'm not very strong or athletic, and I have never had any aptitude for anything that requires physical skill.
And it wasn't good training that kept me in the sport, because I hadn't had any. I had tons of buoyancy problems, the worst being an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet (that was scary).
Some people are divers. Once they get underwater, they know they "belong" there. Others apparently aren't, and some of those people visit the underwater world occasionally, and that's all they want to do. For those of us whose imaginations are caught by the first, magical dive, the effort needed to become a skilled diver is easy to commit. For the others, it would make diving far too much work, I think.
When I got certified, I had no intention of ever setting foot in Puget Sound. I had told my husband I would do the pool and classroom work in Seattle, and then he was going to take me to his father's in Maui to do the dives, because I wasn't getting in that cold water. Not ever.
Well, of course, I did . . . and I froze my butt off in a leaking dry suit, to the point where I was rather ill at the end of two dives. I have asked myself many times why I went on with it. But I did, and ended up getting completely addicted to the sport. If you had interviewed me beforehand, I don't think you could have predicted that I would become an avid diver. I hate being cold more than anything in the whole world; I'm not very strong or athletic, and I have never had any aptitude for anything that requires physical skill.
And it wasn't good training that kept me in the sport, because I hadn't had any. I had tons of buoyancy problems, the worst being an uncontrolled ascent from 70 feet (that was scary).
Some people are divers. Once they get underwater, they know they "belong" there. Others apparently aren't, and some of those people visit the underwater world occasionally, and that's all they want to do. For those of us whose imaginations are caught by the first, magical dive, the effort needed to become a skilled diver is easy to commit. For the others, it would make diving far too much work, I think.
- Messages
- 1,938
- Reaction score
- 168
- # of dives
- 500 - 999
Sorry it is a word. You couldn't find a lexicographer in the world who would claim otherwise if you tried.
That you don't know how a word is commonly used does not make that use invalid, it merely makes you ignorant. But then the whole "blue hair" comments more than give that away anyway.
- Messages
- 1,938
- Reaction score
- 168
- # of dives
- 500 - 999
When one is going to make an analogy, it serves one well to avoid making clear historical blunders in describing the analog.
"Sport" diverged from the word "disport" sometime in the middle 14the century as a verb. It meant to amuse one's self. By the late 15th century it came to take on the connotation of including exercise or a game of some type, though that connection was not assumed. It was not until several hundred years passed that "sport" could be said to denote an athletic endeavor.
Typically when one talks about watering something down, they mean diluting from the original meaning, which is not happening here. The meaning of the term, in common parlance, is becoming more narrow and strict, not more broad and encompassing.
- Messages
- 22,171
- Reaction score
- 2,802
- # of dives
- 5000 - ∞
No ...watered down, in common parlance, means less concentrated, weaker, more dilute, etc., not more broad and encompassing.
One of my biggest regrets from college was selling the book we used in my philosophy of sport and play class. There was an entire chapter dedicated to defining why scuba diving, sky diving, auto racing, mountain climbing, etc., are sports and was incredibly well-written, categorized and presented. I could do a much better job by quoting the thinkers who defined the philosophy of sport, play and games with that resource.
However, I'll do my best to remember some of the arguments regarding this topic and present them so we can better understand diving's right to be a sport under the traditional classification of a sport in ancient Greece.
If we look at how a modern sport is defined, we could use the following:
DEFINITION OF SPORT:
Sport Definition | Definition of Sport at Dictionary.com
1) Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and
often engaged in competitively.
2) A particular form of this activity.
3) An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a
set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
4) An active pastime; recreation.
For the sake of argument, and I might agree with Halemano, let's toss out number 4 as being "watered down" and we'll look at definitions 1, 2 and 3 as they apply to scuba diving. The first 3 definitions, I think we could agree defines most generally accepted definitioms for a sport and was also how the Greeks separated a sport, from a game, and from play. Games and play do not need physical activity to the same level as a sport. For example, chess is a game that only requires the player to move a playing piece and may be played without the player moving his own pieces. Play, such as gazing at clouds and pretending they are other shapes, requires very little physical activity and also has little if any rules or defined goals.
Scuba Diving
Physical Activity: Divers must swim or use propulsion vehicles. Swimming and operating DPV's both require skill. Swimming may require exertion in current or when needing speed. Scootering may require skills similar to that of race car drivers. As such diving can be 100% physical or based upon the skill of operating and using one's body in conjunction with the operation of a machine. Even slow swimming requires attention to good propulsion and awareness of buoyancy and trim to meet some of the goals of diving such as protecting the environment.
Rules: Ascent rates, deco stops, gas management, dive protocols, automatic behavioral responses to prevent injury or death, safe use of equipment such as reels, scooters and spearguns, team and solo procedures, practices for certain types of diving such as wreck, ice, cave, rebreathers, freediving, and underwater hunting.
Competition: The competition is man vs. nature and the physical laws of the universe in the purist sense. The goal is to win by surviving the dive.
Forms: The most obvious competitive forms of diving often involve freediving. Underwater hockey, underwater rugby, static apnea, dynamic apnea and depth competitions as well as spearfishing competitions are often used to defend diving as a sport. But, other forms of diving are also competitive such "monkey bash" with scooters or the games that are part of the Ultimate Diver Challenge. Notice I said games. You can play a game in a sport, but not the other way around. Whatever the form of diving whether cave diving, wreck diving, nitrox, trimix, reef or other form, the competition exists within oneself or with the environment.
Goals: The ultimate goal is to survive. Since survival is a goal, there must be forces that need to be overcome and beaten. These may be dangerous marine life, the ocean's currents and tides, the geology of a cave or the bottom features of a reef. Secondary goals might be to take photos, protect the environment through swimming skills, hunt, explore, discover, etc.
Ultimately, any sport, game or sense of play has to be "free" of our daily lives and "unreal" in the sense that the rules and landscape of that sport, play or game exists with its own rules and time frame, and finally engaged in for fun.
All play is free and unreal and therefore, recreation.
Things get more complicated when we attempt to discern whether professional athletes are "playing" a sport. But, the answer is that they are ultimately playing since they are still obeying the rules and time frame of a world that can be distinguished from daily life by a different set of rules and time frame.
It's been 20 years since I've studied the nuances of this topic. I've done my best to recollect the arguments supporting diving as a sport. It is classified as a sport of vertigo like skydiving, stunt flying or gymnastics.
However, I'll do my best to remember some of the arguments regarding this topic and present them so we can better understand diving's right to be a sport under the traditional classification of a sport in ancient Greece.
If we look at how a modern sport is defined, we could use the following:
DEFINITION OF SPORT:
Sport Definition | Definition of Sport at Dictionary.com
1) Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and
often engaged in competitively.
2) A particular form of this activity.
3) An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a
set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively.
4) An active pastime; recreation.
For the sake of argument, and I might agree with Halemano, let's toss out number 4 as being "watered down" and we'll look at definitions 1, 2 and 3 as they apply to scuba diving. The first 3 definitions, I think we could agree defines most generally accepted definitioms for a sport and was also how the Greeks separated a sport, from a game, and from play. Games and play do not need physical activity to the same level as a sport. For example, chess is a game that only requires the player to move a playing piece and may be played without the player moving his own pieces. Play, such as gazing at clouds and pretending they are other shapes, requires very little physical activity and also has little if any rules or defined goals.
Scuba Diving
Physical Activity: Divers must swim or use propulsion vehicles. Swimming and operating DPV's both require skill. Swimming may require exertion in current or when needing speed. Scootering may require skills similar to that of race car drivers. As such diving can be 100% physical or based upon the skill of operating and using one's body in conjunction with the operation of a machine. Even slow swimming requires attention to good propulsion and awareness of buoyancy and trim to meet some of the goals of diving such as protecting the environment.
Rules: Ascent rates, deco stops, gas management, dive protocols, automatic behavioral responses to prevent injury or death, safe use of equipment such as reels, scooters and spearguns, team and solo procedures, practices for certain types of diving such as wreck, ice, cave, rebreathers, freediving, and underwater hunting.
Competition: The competition is man vs. nature and the physical laws of the universe in the purist sense. The goal is to win by surviving the dive.
Forms: The most obvious competitive forms of diving often involve freediving. Underwater hockey, underwater rugby, static apnea, dynamic apnea and depth competitions as well as spearfishing competitions are often used to defend diving as a sport. But, other forms of diving are also competitive such "monkey bash" with scooters or the games that are part of the Ultimate Diver Challenge. Notice I said games. You can play a game in a sport, but not the other way around. Whatever the form of diving whether cave diving, wreck diving, nitrox, trimix, reef or other form, the competition exists within oneself or with the environment.
Goals: The ultimate goal is to survive. Since survival is a goal, there must be forces that need to be overcome and beaten. These may be dangerous marine life, the ocean's currents and tides, the geology of a cave or the bottom features of a reef. Secondary goals might be to take photos, protect the environment through swimming skills, hunt, explore, discover, etc.
Ultimately, any sport, game or sense of play has to be "free" of our daily lives and "unreal" in the sense that the rules and landscape of that sport, play or game exists with its own rules and time frame, and finally engaged in for fun.
All play is free and unreal and therefore, recreation.
Things get more complicated when we attempt to discern whether professional athletes are "playing" a sport. But, the answer is that they are ultimately playing since they are still obeying the rules and time frame of a world that can be distinguished from daily life by a different set of rules and time frame.
It's been 20 years since I've studied the nuances of this topic. I've done my best to recollect the arguments supporting diving as a sport. It is classified as a sport of vertigo like skydiving, stunt flying or gymnastics.
Similar threads
