Diving Education Today

[TMHeimer]

Aside from the cost of visiting, let alone moving to 6 continents, there are tons of Instructors who undoubtably teach only in the area where trained. I would agree that to move to a different locale should require some subsequent training specific to that area. As I mentioned, I have had 8 instructors and felt they were all quite good. I believe the reason they are paid so poorly is not mainly because the training is so easy (though obviously easier that a 4-5 year degree to teach public school). But I would think they are in a field similar to us musicians--An activity that people do for fun, so the pay should(?) be low. Ask any musician who has not made the millions with a Top 40 Hit. Can't count the times I've been asked to play for FREE--with 2 degrees and a lifetime of experience. We have to accept that's just the way it is.

 

[DCBC]

I guess my point is that instructors in one environment are not always qualified for another. It's pretty easy to teach in south east Asia. It's probably a little more difficult in the Pacific Northwest. But even the PNW instructor has no real frame of reference if they start to teach in SE Asia. Coral versus kelp, different hazards, different marine injuries, etc. Certainly the change from T-shirt to 7mm wetsuit is a rude shock for the diver trained in SE Asia! I don't recall a single mention of wetsuits when I learned to dive - in SE Asia.

I agree Richard. As diving conditions change, so should the training that is provided for the diver. Only one certification body that I'm aware of doesn't seem to understand the importance of this.

But it's only a few of you that are saying they can't dive unsupervised. And that's just your opinion of divers 'in general'.

Every single instructor certified their OW students as capable of unsupervised diving within the limits of their training with a buddy of similar training in an environment similar to their training. Or words to that effect... And tens of thousands do it every day without incident.

So, who's problem is this? Either there is no problem and we're just burning bandwidth (my opinion) or an entire legion of instructors just flat-out lied.

Actually some certifications requires that the diver is accompanied by a DM or Instructor and can only dive under his/her supervision. He is not certified to dive unsupervised. At other times the card indicates the diver is allowed to dive unsupervised, but is trained insufficiently to do so.

In other threads even the most critical of instructors finally admitted that it isn't the agencies' standards that are the problem. It is the instructors' interpretations of the standards are the issue. The strict requirements of the standards would lead to qualified graduates. The issue is the interpretation of the word 'mastery'. Are 2 or 3 iterations of mask replacement sufficient to show 'mastery'? Beats me! I'm not an instructor.

So, let's shift focus to the fact that, if divers are unskilled, the blame lies squarely at the feet of the instructors. Not the divers, they don't know squat. Not the agencies, the standards are adequate. It is the fault of the legions of crappy instructors. Well, assuming that there is a problem...

This is of course dependent upon opinion. Personally, I do not see the minimum requirements sufficient unless the diver was diving supervised in warm clear water.

Most instructors teach to a standard that surpasses the standards. Why is this the case? Simply because the majority of Instructors imo and those polled on SB feel that the minimums are insufficient. Basically you have the Instructors providing more than what the certification agencies feel necessary. You can hardly blame the Instructors for this. Perhaps the certification agencies should design minimum requirements more in-line with what is required.

One agency even requires the Instructor to certify the diver, as long as they pass the agencies requirements. In other words, if you went to an Instructor teaching through this agency and he added information to the program that he felt was required for your diving safety in the local area and you failed to absorb anything that he added to the program. You would walk away with your C-card (as long as you met the agencies requirements). Thank goodness, not all certification agencies do this. [/QUOTE]

Why are instructors so poorly paid? Because it takes little talent to become an instructor and the market is overly saturated. Zero to hero in 100 dives! Yep! That clearly indicates "professional". It takes at least 6 years of college to get into the profession of engineering (eg MSEE). I don't see how scuba instruction can rise to the level of "profession" in the wildest imagination.

Perhaps pay isn't a good factor to determine value. Why is a Closed Bell Saturation Diver paid more than twice that of an engineer? Why are people looking after children in Day Care Facilities not making more than minimum wage? I suppose the only answer is that our values are screwed-up.

If we had 90% fewer instructors and they actually were proficient, things might improve (if they actually need to). The reason Navy divers (and commercial divers) are better trained isn't because the students are smarter, it's because they have better instructors. And hundreds of hours to get it right...

As a past Navy and current Commercial Diver & Instructor, the only reason why the Instructors are more knowledgeable is that they teach to higher standards. This requires instructors to know about their subject matter. If you don't need to teach it, you don't have to know it. As diver standards are reduced, so is the caliber of instructor.

Fire them all! Cancel every instructor certificate! Increase the requirements for instructors and have them judged by an independent panel of experts. People from out of town; a long way out of town. There should be teaching professionals on the panel and they should have NO involvement with scuba diving. Professional educators only. The review process would include observation of an entire OW training sequence - start to finish.

Throw them all out and start over! Produce instructors with real credibility.

I think NAUI used to do something like this (without the teaching experts). I seem to recall my instructor telling me of his performances before the review panel. I think he mentioned 'grim' several times. But he was honest!

Richard, this could be a solution, but this would first presume that the organization certifying the instructors in-question felt that the level of instructors required to be higher. Again, it is in the hands of the certification agencies and not the instructors themselves.

If the instructors possessed a higher degree of knowledge, it would be logical for them to want to pass their knowledge along to their students. Their training programs would most likely be longer. The bottomline is that lower standards serve the certification agencies more than high standards. The shorter the training time, the more profit. If you teach a diver a program or cut the course up into 5 courses covering the same material your profits increase 500%. Good for business, not the diver if s/he happen to be diving partially trained.

 

[gcbryan]

...
If you teach a diver a program or cut the course up into 5 courses covering the same material your profits increase 500%. Good for business, not the diver if s/he happen to be diving partially trained.

This isn't the true scenario is it? It sounds good but it isn't what is happening.

If the course were longer it would cost more. Breaking it up into 5 courses does probably provide a little more profit just like buying 5 candy bars separately costs more than buying a "5 pack" but it doesn't result in 500% profit for the company. It's the premium of convenience.

Saying it's all about the money, no one has any morals, our values are screwed up because someone watching kids play all day doesn't make a great salary is just not understanding reality.

No one gets paid based on how important (subjective) there job is. That's like saying if a piece of scuba equipment is "life support" the cost has to equate with how much your life is worth.

My life is priceless so how can I afford any scuba equipment under that scenario.

Salary is supply and demand just like anything else. Everyone's job is based in part on profit unless you work for the government and then your salary comes from the taxpayers. So no profit no job. Why should scuba training be different. If you want instructors to be paid there has to be profit or there is no salary.

Do you really think that people diving for a pastime should have the same training as someone who dives for a living?

If I plant a bush in my backyard do I need to know as much as a landscaper or as a biologist?

 

[rstofer]

Actually some certifications requires that the diver is accompanied by a DM or Instructor and can only dive under his/her supervision. He is not certified to dive unsupervised. At other times the card indicates the diver is allowed to dive unsupervised, but is trained insufficiently to do so.

The closest I have seen to this certification is Junior Open Water (PADI) and it applies to youngsters under 15. The training is EXACTLY the same as OW (although normally one-on-one) but for liability reasons, the JOW is restricted to diving 40' or less and accompanied by a certified parent/guardian or dive professional (DM or Instructor). Works for me!

I suppose there could be resort certifications but I don't see them listed in the mainstream agency web sites (PADI, NAUI specifically) as certifying OW divers. There are some scuba intro programs but they don't purport to turn out Open Water divers and OW training is what we're talking about.

This is of course dependent upon opinion. Personally, I do not see the minimum requirements sufficient unless the diver was diving supervised in warm clear water.

Yup! And this is where the entire content of this thread lies: opinion. Not one PADI instructor has spelled out EXACTLY what the standards require. So, while folks stand around saying the standards are inadequate, they do so without disclosing the standards. Pretty easy to pass judgement when there are no facts!

One agency even requires the Instructor to certify the diver, as long as they pass the agencies requirements. In other words, if you went to an Instructor teaching through this agency and he added information to the program that he felt was required for your diving safety in the local area and you failed to absorb anything that he added to the program. You would walk away with your C-card (as long as you met the agencies requirements). Thank goodness, not all certification agencies do this.

And there is a problem with this, why? The instructor is free at any time to decide not to teach that agency's program. Instructors can teach any program they like!

Oh, you mean that they choose to teach PADI because it is the largest and most recognized program on the planet and this guarantees them a source of students? Well, there isn't much integrity in that, is there?

Perhaps pay isn't a good factor to determine value. Why is a Closed Bell Saturation Diver paid more than twice that of an engineer? Why are people looking after children in Day Care Facilities not making more than minimum wage? I suppose the only answer is that our values are screwed-up.

Perceived value. There are very few divers willing to take the risks of saturation diving hence scarcity. To overcome scarcity requires cash. Day care workers are a dime a dozen. It carries very little risk and requires very little training.

Our values are exactly correct! Now, if you want day care plus education, maybe you're willing to pay a little more. If you want a live-in nanny maybe you pay even more. If you want a full-time tutor in a variety of subjects, maybe you pay a lot.

Perceived value runs the world! Why does anybody pay the premium of SP regs over <pick a brand>? Perceived value! That's what is neat about 'perceived': it doesn't even have to be real!

As a past Navy and current Commercial Diver & Instructor, the only reason why the Instructors are more knowledgeable is that they teach to higher standards. This requires instructors to know about their subject matter. If you don't need to teach it, you don't have to know it. As diver standards are reduced, so is the caliber of instructor.

OK, but why does a recreational diver need to know all that 'higher standard' stuff? Just jump in, swim down, swim around and swim back up. No big deal. They're not training for confined spaces, they're not expected to understand deco diving or any of the rest of the complications of military or commercial diving. They don't need to have perfect trim and probably won't. Diving doesn't have to be pretty.

Richard, this could be a solution, but this would first presume that the organization certifying the instructors in-question felt that the level of instructors required to be higher. Again, it is in the hands of the certification agencies and not the instructors themselves.

No, all of the credible instructors could cancel their memberships with these lackadaisical agencies and start up with a new organization. Sure, they would starve to death before their new organization gained recognition but, hey, it's a matter of integrity!

Worse, their customers would still be looking for the fast program and where there is a demand, there WILL be a supply. So, even if a 'super' agency could be created, it might not be a commercial success.

The system is what it is. I doubt that anything will change and if it does, I doubt that it will improve.

Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Some of us are trying though. ANd there are still those out there who want value for their money. The problem is they have no idea what value really is when it comes to training. I certainly didn't. My OW instructor was very careful to not even mention other agencies and training methods. Had I known then what I know now or even after finding Scubaboard and the deco stop I would have most likely gone a different route. He was very pissed at the diver who turned me on to these sites. Especially after I went more and more towards technical and found other shops who would get me what I wanted and not badmouth my choices. And when I crossed over was when he told people that he did not want to speak to me. He felt betrayed. Too bad for him. I could be teaching for his shop now, have more students. But I'd be doing it his way under a system that goes against my morals, ethics and standards that I feel new divers deserve to be trained to. Not worth it.

 

[rstofer]

Yes, Jim, I expected your reply. I really hope the SEI organization can become (or maybe already is) a huge success. I certainly don't advocate against more training. I just don't believe that the training has 'gone to hell in a hand-basket'.

As I said much earlier in this thread, were it possible, I would love to have my grandson repeat his OW training with LA County or some similar program. Perhaps it will come to pass.

But there are too many PADI divers making too many successful dives every day to come to the conclusion that the training is inadequate. It IS adequate. It is not exemplary.

Richard

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not saying it isn't "adequate". It;s those times that adequate is not enough and someone gets hurt or worse. I see many adequate divers. I myself would never dive with them unless paid to and I sure as heck would not let someone I cared about dive with them. That above all else is my gauge for the level of training an OW diver should have. If an instructor would not let his loved ones dive with a student without him/her in the water why on earth would they give them a c card. I know of at least a few divers that my OW instructor certified that he specifically said he'd never let his daughter dive with and feel she'd be safe if a problem came up. That is another reason I chose to get away from him. My question was why did you give them a card then? Answer- they met the standards, he had to.

 

[rstofer]

Not saying it isn't "adequate". It;s those times that adequate is not enough and someone gets hurt or worse. I see many adequate divers. I myself would never dive with them unless paid to and I sure as heck would not let someone I cared about dive with them. That above all else is my gauge for the level of training an OW diver should have..

That's a pretty high standard. In my case I wouldn't let any other diver, nor any DM I have ever met and only a couple of instructors dive with my grandson. I'm not even sure about the instuctors. I'll have to think about it. If he is to get additional training, I will have to relent. But only so long as his father is on the same dives.

Does this mean that these other divers are inadequate in any other setting? Certainly not! They could be the greatest divers on the planet but when it comes to my grandson, the bar is just a little higher than that.

There just aren't enough accidents with injuries or fatalities to show that training is inadequate. There are certainly examples of accidents where training was violated (OOA, AGE, DCS, etc). But it isn't like the diver didn't know better. They just chose to make a mistake! Maybe it was a 'brain fart' (there is a technical term for this but I don't recall it at the moment) but it wasn't because they weren't trained.

People make mistakes. People die. That doesn't prove they weren't trained.

Richard

 

[rstofer]

People make mistakes. People die. That doesn't prove they weren't trained.

Richard

In fact, that's one of the purposes for the written exam. It proves that at one time the student did indeed know they shouldn't run out of air.

The old NAUI program had a final exam requirement that the student could miss no dive table questions. A passing grade was less than 100%, of course, but no mistakes were allowed re: dive tables.

Richard

 

[Lj82]

The old NAUI program had a final exam requirement that the student could miss no dive table questions. A passing grade was less than 100%, of course, but no mistakes were allowed re: dive tables.

Richard

Has that changed? I'm pretty sure it was the same when I took my course in 2006/2007.