The "Official" SB Scuba Course?

[kjack_1]

I agree with this. It's much too early to talk about how long you want the course to take. At this point we should be taking John's advice and just defining what we want our OW diver to be able to do. The rest will come.


Philosophically I agree with this. You can't expect students to come back and I don't think the SB course should set it's ambition level so low that you have to assume they will either dive under supervision or come back in order to complete their training.....

However, having said that, there are "levels" of competence. IN a perfect world, a completely competent OW diver may be completely safe but still have limits. Diving withing the NDL's, diving at generally acceptable depths for air, for example. We don't need to make an OW diver who can do everything, just to do the things they are trained to do competently. I hope you see it like taht too.

So.... DC, are you leaning towards committing to this project then?

R..

Agreed on the course length - but IMO you do need a general timeframe to shoot for. If not, the course could just bog down with all the material that people want to add.

Then we go back to length vs. cost equation.

The rest - 100% agreed.

 

[snturner]

I would like to see some kind of audit on local dive shop classes. I have attempted to take the PADI rescue class at two different shops here in town. Right and wrong seems to depend on who is "teaching" the class. The person teaching the class has been diving for a whole 3 years. With out going into a bunch of details, I think PADI, NAUI, etc... need to send someone out to audit how classes are being thought.

Also, I found out I can be a certified wreck diver if I pay the dive shop $120 and then do 1 dive on a sunken school bus with no windows, doors or seats, in 35 feet of water. Then I will be ready to dive the John D. Gill wreck off of North Carolina.

 

[DCBC]

I would like to see some kind of audit on local dive shop classes. I have attempted to take the PADI rescue class at two different shops here in town. Right and wrong seems to depend on who is "teaching" the class. The person teaching the class has been diving for a whole 3 years. With out going into a bunch of details, I think PADI, NAUI, etc... need to send someone out to audit how classes are being thought.

Also, I found out I can be a certified wreck diver if I pay the dive shop $120 and then do 1 dive on a sunken school bus with no windows, doors or seats, in 35 feet of water. Then I will be ready to dive the John D. Gill wreck off of North Carolina.

Although this is diverging somewhat from the topic being discussed, I too find that quality control may suffer at times in the diving industry. Too many local dive stores and their Instructors look at ways to cross the T's and dot the I's when it comes to minimum requirements. It's a way of revenue generation and they can get away with it.

For any diver (Instructors included), it's a matter of applying common sense and good judgement. Because you are a certified as a "wreck diver," it doesn't mean that you are qualified to dive the Andrea Doria. Depth and penetration are factors to be considered.

If any of us haven't had experience on a particular dive or location before, we should consider ourselves beginners regardless of our training and experience and look to others for direction and advise. It's not a matter of ego, but a means to maximize safety.

 

[Diver0001]

Also, I found out I can be a certified wreck diver if I pay the dive shop $120 and then do 1 dive on a sunken school bus with no windows, doors or seats, in 35 feet of water. Then I will be ready to dive the John D. Gill wreck off of North Carolina.

Yeah.

One of the essential quality elements that you have in the balance in a scuba class is the degree to which you offer "skills" versus "experience".

Someone can tell you about some of the risks of wreck diving but now much "experience" do you need (or expect) to get?

Practicing on a bus is a good idea. Practicing on something bigger than a bus is also a good idea. Going too far with it will drive the costs up so much that it's not affordable. Not going far enough with it will leave the student doubting if they really learned what they need to learn... I dont' think it's always easy to find the sweet spot.

R..

 

[snturner]

My point about being "wreck diver" certified is this. Joe Diver gets wreck certified on a school bus in 35 ft of water. He then goes on vacation to some south pacific island or Caribbean dive spot. That diver now thinks because he is wreck certified he can now dive wrecks in 80 ft of water that involve penetrating the wreck. The local dive shop asks, "Are you wreck certified?" That's all it takes.

I know this diver should have common sense and know that the 450 ft ship wreck in 80 ft of water is not a novice dive... but usually Joe Driver doesn't.

I love it when someone says "There is no such thing as common sense." To me that means "Yes there are people/divers who don't have the smarts to be doing what they are doing. Hence no common sense." A dive shop should weed these individuals out of a certification class, like rescue diver certification.

Are dive shops pushing people through dive classes for the money? Maybe if there was a way to track diving deaths and serious accidents back to a dive shop. Like insurance companies do. DAN? I know there are a lot of circumstances that may or may not apply to the dive shop. I think it would be interesting to know, how many of the divers certified at a certain dive shop have had serious issues while diving, related to the training they received.

 

[Diver0001]

I know this diver should have common sense and know that the 450 ft ship wreck in 80 ft of water is not a novice dive... but usually Joe Driver doesn't.

I hear what you're saying. It's possible that too little training is worse than no training at all.... that's true.

Are dive shops pushing people through dive classes for the money?

Sure they are, as they should be. To a shop, a training course is a product that they sell for profit. If a business isn't trying to make money there's something very wrong. The *good* ones will strike a nice sweet balance between price and quality and customers will leave happy and come back.

Maybe if there was a way to track diving deaths and serious accidents back to a dive shop. Like insurance companies do. DAN? I know there are a lot of circumstances that may or may not apply to the dive shop. I think it would be interesting to know, how many of the divers certified at a certain dive shop have had serious issues while diving, related to the training they received.

This does happen in some rare occasions, either on the basis of shop or instructor. I know of at least one shop that was shut down because of accidents they were having. In that case the authorities shut them down and not the agency. Obviously every agency knows about accidents their instructors have. Just based on gut feeling I don't think there are an overly large number of people dying on wrecks. The ones that do are just as likely, in my opinoin, to die doing something stupid that they tried because they read something about someone on the internet doing it than they are by ignoring their training and diving way out of their comfort zone.

R..

 

[DCBC]

My point about being "wreck diver" certified is this. Joe Diver gets wreck certified on a school bus in 35 ft of water. He then goes on vacation to some south pacific island or Caribbean dive spot. That diver now thinks because he is wreck certified he can now dive wrecks in 80 ft of water that involve penetrating the wreck. The local dive shop asks, "Are you wreck certified?" That's all it takes.

...Are dive shops pushing people through dive classes for the money? ... I think it would be interesting to know, how many of the divers certified at a certain dive shop have had serious issues while diving, related to the training they received.

I too wish that it was feasible to monitor more closely. LDSs promote these kinds of courses; which are run by an increasingly lengthening list of Instructors. If they can do a thing, they do it. If they're asked about it they point to the minimum standards, so their behavior's "sanctioned." They don't all see a need to clarify matters for the diver's benefit. Not all Instructors do this, but a good portion obviously do.

I stand on my soap box time and time again (I sometimes feel like a profit speaking about impending doom), few listen or even care. These Instructors point to the statistics that are available and say see, this proves that we're not acting irresponsibly at all. I wonder why there is a growing number of people in the diving community that seem concerned?

I suppose you see the level of training that's apparent on the dive boats and compare this with how it was in days past. The depth and breadth of diver knowledge seems to be diminishing, but who am I to say? Look at the stats, so it obviously doesn't make any difference...

 

[Diver0001]

Dude, you're assuming that the instructor is somehow responsbile for the student diving outside of his training.

If the instructor gives you a wreck card and a little tiny bit of experience diving on the easiest of sunken objects and subsequently tells you that you're now ready to dive any wreck in the world and sends you on your way, then yes, the instructor is to blame.

But most instructors I know are quite clear with students that they have to get experience incrementally and to dive within their comfort zone. This is repeated over and over again. Whose fault is it then if a student goes and does something stupid?

Not everything boils down to a simple formula of incompetent instructors and evil agencies.

R..

 

[DiveNav]

Hi Kingpatzer,
interesting exercise. you have started here.

Couple of comments

I did look at your Wiki and noticed that in the equipment section you are missing means to "measure" depth and time ..... that I think are quite necessary to figure out your nitrogen loading and/or deco obligations. So, I do not want to re-open the table vs dive computers discussion here, but I think that watch, depth indicator and - quite important too - tank pressure indicator should be part of the equipment list ... and maybe you can combine them into a dive computer too.

The other comment I have is regarding to who is your target population.
The Navy Seal divers? Affluent Baby Boomers? Generation X? Generation Y?
Do you want to "customize" the course toward a specific target population? Or make it as generic as possible to fit both the retired baby boomer that wants to give it a try to Scuba and the growing teenager that is wondering how life was before eBay?

Alberto

 

[boulderjohn]

My point about being "wreck diver" certified is this. Joe Diver gets wreck certified on a school bus in 35 ft of water. He then goes on vacation to some south pacific island or Caribbean dive spot. That diver now thinks because he is wreck certified he can now dive wrecks in 80 ft of water that involve penetrating the wreck. The local dive shop asks, "Are you wreck certified?" That's all it takes.

I know this diver should have common sense and know that the 450 ft ship wreck in 80 ft of water is not a novice dive... but usually Joe Driver doesn't.

This is not really true.

First of all, the wreck certification you are talking about is a very basic course, and every operator will know that. They will know that a basic recreational wreck course does not qualify you for serious wreck diving. They are not idiots.

Next, most of the wrecks dived by operators in the places you suggest are as safer or safe than that bus. The wrecks that require greater skill require greater training, and the operators will look for that.

Finally, having taken his wreck course, Joe Diver will know the difference. The primary thing it teaches you is what you can safely do at your level of training and what you cannot do at your level of training--and how to tell the difference.