Seeking Opinions on Troubling Incident

[redacted]

Ah, but what if it was?

For all we know, the "offending instructor" perceived the presence of the "assaulted student" as a threat to his own student. Perhaps he used visual signals to ask the "assaulted student" to move to no avail.


You mean like if the bus (submarine) were barreling down on him and the instructor shoved him out of the way!!! If the student had been perceived as interfering with the instructor then reasonable action to communicate and correct that would be appropriate. A shove strikes me as excessive.

Now, I'm not advocating bringing the police in on this. But I don't think the incident should just be accepted and ignored. Talk to the instructor. Talk to the shop. And perhaps elevate if neither of these actions bring satisfactory resolution.

 

[Rhone Man]

I think we should be careful about interpreting "assault" = "police and/or lawsuit".

A shove, underwater or above water, is not legally acceptable conduct. That doesn't mean you have to sue someone, or call the cops. But it does mean that (barring some sort of emergency) that is entirely inappropriate behaviour.

For all I know there was a bloody freshwater shark hurtling towards the student, and the other instructor saved his life in a nick of time. But it doesn't sound like it. It sounds like an instructor pissed off at someone else coming onto "his" platform and tried to shove him off. It sounds like an appropriate issue to raise with that instructor above water, or if he is not willing to discuss it, with his employer.

 

[Teamcasa]

Commenting on this based solely on the information provided would yield nothing very useful. However, had I been there and responsible for the student, I would have made every effort to discuss the incident with the instructor who did the pushing.

He may very well have a reasonable explanation or a sincere apology waiting.

 

[jpsexton]

Ever tried moving an overweighted kneeling student?

I haven't, but I don't imagine it can be done with a light pat on the butt.

It's very easy to misconstrue un-communicated actions underwater, especially when dealing with unfamiliar divers.


I'm not saying he was in the right. I'm saying me may not have been in the wrong.

Well I can't see how it's acceptable behavior for an instructor to put his hands on another instructors student. It doesn't matter if its a light pat on the butt, a light shove, a hard shove, or grappled in a headlock like a WWE wrestler. It's simply not acceptable!

The problem for the OP though is how does he communicate this to the offending instructor?

If you try to talk with him one on one he might understand the error of his ways and apologize to your student and resist the urge to shove other students in the future.

He may also take offense to your challenging his authority and then the situation escalates to someone getting the police called on them after all.

It's a hard call really...

 

[Blackwood]

If the student had been perceived as interfering with the instructor then reasonable action to communicate and correct that would be appropriate. A shove strikes me as excessive.

Yah, but it's not inconceivable that a new diver, already overwhelmed by becoming visually separated from his instructor and buddy, would be unresponsive.

Well I can't see how it's acceptable behavior for an instructor to put his hands on another instructors student.

I think there are situations where it could be acceptable, namely the suggested situation where the presence of the shoved diver is perceived as a danger to the offending instructor's own student.


The main point of my playing devil's advocate is that only one of the people in this thread was actually there, and unfortunately he didn't speak with the other involved party. It's really easy to to point the finger of blame, but we don't know the whole story.

 

[TSandM]

I spoke to my husband, who is an attorney, and he confirmed what I thought, which is that you could file a complaint on this, but nobody would do anything about it. Yes, in the technical sense, it is assault, but as Sparty says, the legal system has better things to do.

It seems to me that the best routes to handle this would be 1) for Offthewall's shop owner to call and talk to the owner of the other shop (since the identity of the shop is apparently certain, even though the identity of the instructor is not) and recount the incident to him, on the theory that he might want to discuss this behavior with his instructor. If it is the quarry shop's belief that they have first rights to the platforms, that is certainly something that other instructors operating there should know. If not, then the quarry shop's owner may well WANT to take this up with his instructor, especially if it is in his financial interest to keep other instructors and classes coming there. You can't assume that he will be defensive or angry, if approached politely.

Second, the incident should be reported to the offending instructor's agency, if his identity can be confirmed. Even if not criminal, this is pretty clearly not professional behavior.

The offending instructor had no way of knowing whether the student he shoved was on his first OW dive of his life, was perhaps an apprehensive sort, or had settled onto the platform because something was wrong or he was overwhelmed. Shoving someone off backwards or sideways into the water, when they are brand new, could very easily provoke panic (especially if they have a regulator that breathes wet when upside down). It was unwise and unprofessional, and hopefully the shop owner will agree and take it up with him.

 

[mrlipis]

After 32 replies, am I the only one that believes his certifying agency should be involved in this? This person is a professional instructor that is responsible for the safety of students, not just his, but all. File an incident report and see if PADI or whoever the agency is, gets involved. I am quite sure they would be interested in the event. If he needs to be reprimanded that is who should be the judge and jury here.

 

[mrlipis]

I spoke too soon. Thanks TSandM.

 

[djanni]

Note that there are multiple sides to every story -- yours, theirs, and the truth is somewhere inbetween.

I see this from both sides of the coin:

1: While an instructor is doing drills on a platform, don't just drop down on it. Go somewhere else -- there's an entire quarry out there, but right now there's an instructor with their student(s) here. They need to be focused on the task at and, and dropping right down on them is distracting and rude. Your instructor should not have let their student kneel on the platform for their safety stop (skill issues aside) while there was another class taking place on the same platform.

2: Shoving the offending diver away is also quite rude. Perhaps a simple "please move a bit further away" signal might work better. That instructor doesn't know your student at all, and doesn't know whey they are on the platform. For all he knows, that guy was there just to distract him and his student. Shoving your student was certainly over the top and unprofessional, but so was letting your student sit near this guy and his class.

...assault? Are you kidding me? That wasn't assault. Assault is someone coming after you with a knife or maybe beating your brains in. This was someone shoving...but I'd hardly call it assault. No wonder our nation is becoming more wussified every day. You people want to bring the police and lawyers in to this? Are you nuts? ...and people complain about us turning into such a litigious society...

How hard does it take to push someone over so they lose their balance while underwater? Most people have issues kneeling while balanced on a platform anyway, especially new students. For all we know this guy just attempted to push the student a bit further away to allow for more room for his class.

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....so now we have some new facts. You were in front of your students, leading them around the quarry, and one was apparently so far behind he was out of visual range.

Instead of you watching your students and having them in your sight AT ALL TIMES, you are playing follow the leader, with your students having the burden of keeping up with and following YOU?!? How can you possibly say you had any control over your students at all, if they are behind you and you can't see them??

YOU are supposed to watch THEM, not the other way around!!!

Playing follow the leader is not an acceptable way to teach diving. For all your know this guy could have been having a heart attack and drowning, and you never would have known it.

Sounds like everyone is a bit guilty in this story.

Although your post is a bit contentious, I agree for the most part. Especially the part about calling it "assault" and getting the police involved. Pushing someone is very aggresive but not assualt. At least to me its not.

I also think the Instructor who did the pushing was wrong and deserves to be confronted.

Since this incident meant enough to Offthewall1 for him to post it, my opinion is Offthewall1 should personally go to the quarry, right away, and ask for an audiance with the Instructor and owner/manager of the shop. Tell the story and see how it goes. Offthewall1 may or may not get the satisfaction he's looking for but either way the offending Instructor will learn a good lesson.

Right now, I suspect the offending Instructor feels like he owns that platform and will continue his aggresive ways.

 

[BDSC]

After 32 replies, am I the only one that believes his certifying agency should be involved in this?

Joe-Diver in post #9 said something about contacting his agency.