Comparing the Canon HF-11 and HG-21

[robint]

So I am finally narrowing down my choices for HD and I have come to the conclusion it is either Canon HF-11 or HG-21.
I am a bit torn as to which one will work for me best. I would like some opinions. :blinking:

When we go on a week dive trip, I usually record about 45-55 minutes video per day on tape. This is doing 3-5 dives per day, including some topside stuff. So I get around 7 hours of video total for a week trip.

The HF-11 has a 32GB internal flash drive and removeable SDHC card. I am guessing I would have to download to my laptop at least once per trip. Since I am sharing the laptop with hubby who shoots still photos, I am guessing it would be best for me to get a small external hard drive to make sure we don't both fill up the laptop before the end of a week. (We have the Acer 8.9" laptop for travel with 120GB hard drive but we do have some software loaded on it already so not all that space is available).

The HG-21 has 120GB hard drive and records AVCHD files which are larger, from what I have read in reviews. I wouldn't have to download at all or buy the external hard drive.

Okay - The BIG advantage of flash drives like HF-11, from what I have read, is that it has no moving parts and is more durable (in case of bumping or dropping camcorder, etc). The HG-21 hard drive has moving parts and is slightly larger overall than the HF-11. The flash drive files are also smaller so editing them should be easier. I will be using my new Pinnacle V.12 software (my Mother's Day present from my daughter).

Price difference of the camcorders will work out to be about the same as the HF-11 is about $100 cheaper, but the need to buy the external hard drive wipes that out.

The housings for each camcorder, I will be getting Ikelite again, have a price difference. The HF-11 housing is several hundred $$$ less as there are less drillings/buttons. I already have an Ikelite light setup ready to use with either. Both camcorders fit inside the housings with the screen open at an angle. Both look okay and usable like this but the HG-21 has the option of a viewfinder which adds over $100 more to cost. Ikelite Housing for Canon Digital Video Cameras


So all things considered, which one should I order tomorrow? My videos are purely for my fun and for posting on my website and Vimeo. We are going on a camping trip 15-17th this month and I plan to shoot video and practice topside with it, and then editing the videos, before taking it underwater.

robin

 

[diversteve]

Some general observations since I'm a Sony guy...lol.

But my sister has an HG-10 that I'm somewhat familiar with. Works great with Studio 12 Plus btw.

First of all the HF-11 is also recording in AVCHD, HDV recording is only for tape models. So there's no difference in recorded filesize, it's totally dependent on the compression you select.

If owned either camera is I would always be recording in MXP (24MBPS) as it's the same as HDV and the best. The HF-11 gives you 2hrs. 55mins. recording time, the HG-21 11hrs. 05mins recording in MXP. I'd pick the HDD model without reservation. If you're going to have to carry another external drive to download the HF-11 it can crash also if dropped. Personally I'd trust the one in the camera b4 a cheap external. I have a MyBook, not sure I'd carry it around in luggage on trips. There are some ruggedized versions but mostly they just float the drive in a rubber shockmount. And it's one more thing to lose/have stolen.

Given your weekly shooting scenario, you'd likely only have to open your housing to change the battery once per week with the HG-21 - assuming the Ikelite housing can take the extended 1780 maH Canon battery. I get 220mins+ with a Sony extended battery and I shoot tape which drags it down faster than a HDD - at least that's my guess.

Both cameras have the same optics.

My sister can copy hours of footage off her HG-10 via USB 2.0 in about 30-45mins. so while SDHC transfer might be a little faster, it's not instant either. I move 2MB of SDHC material onto my HP Netbook in about 4mins. ymmv.

Personally (not sure how much of a discount you're getting) but if I was going to go with a Canon flash memory model it would be the new HFS-10, it's got more than twice the sensor resolution of the HF-11 with the same storage capacity - and same list price. x.v. color through the HDMI port also if your HDTV supports it. (more colors per pixel) if you ever just play your videos.

What Studio 12 did you get? You'll need Plus or Ultimate to natively import/edit AVCHD files.

hth,

 

[robint]

Yeah, I am getting the Ultimate v.12. I have been using Pinnacle for past 3 years doing SD. I like the format as it is very easy for me.

I have looked at the specs on the HFS-10 camcorder but it is quite a bit more $$$ plus the Ikelite housing hasn't happened yet and may not for several months. I won't buy a camcorder without having the housing available and I don't want to wait any longer. I have been waiting since last year to upgrade to HD!

As far as the laptop issue - yes, if we drop it it breaks. But it goes with us on every trip! We have internet access with it (must have that to communicate with daughter every day who stays home). Also, Ron must download his still photos daily and review them. So regardless of which camcorder I pick, the laptop goes with us on our trips!

The Ikelite housing can handle the stock battery, BP-809 that comes with the camcorder, and also the BP-819. With my Sony camcorders I have taken out the larger battery once per day in the evenings to charge, that way I have a fresh battery to start each dive day. I expect I will do the same in this case.

So... there is one vote for the HG-21. Anyone else have an opinion?

robin

 

[ronscuba]

I personally open my housing everyday, not only to change tapes, charge battery, but also to view the days footage for any mistakes, missed shots, etc.. If this were my only camcorder, I would also remove it from the housing to shoot topside footage.

The extra storage capacity of the HG is little value to me. I'm not up to speed, are these cams basically identical videowise and the only difference is the hard drive ?

You might also want to download some raw Canon AVCHD files from Vimeo and test how your software and hardware handles them. You wouldn't want to get an unexpected surprise and find you need an upgrade on your pc hw/sw too.

I agree with Steve to consider the Canon S10/100 if you can afford it. When is your next trip ?

 

[robint]

I personally open my housing everyday, not only to change tapes, charge battery, but also to view the days footage for any mistakes, missed shots, etc.. If this were my only camcorder, I would also remove it from the housing to shoot topside footage.

The extra storage capacity of the HG is little value to me. I'm not up to speed, are these cams basically identical videowise and the only difference is the hard drive ?

You might also want to download some raw Canon AVCHD files from Vimeo and test how your software and hardware handles them. You wouldn't want to get an unexpected surprise and find you need an upgrade on your pc hw/sw too.

I agree with Steve to consider the Canon S10/100 if you can afford it. When is your next trip ?

We upgraded the memory on the computer a few months ago so it should be fine with the software now.

Yes, the two camcorders are basically identical (from my non-geek analysis) with the exception of the method of storage. One other exception, I forgot to mention, is that hte HG-21 has a viewfinder and the HF-11 does not. I never used the view finder underwater on my old camcorder but i did use it topside if it was sunny. So since I am going to be using it sometimes topside that is a consideration....

Next video adventure is in a few weeks, topside only. I want to have the camcorder for that so I can start to learn what it can do for me and practice editing with the new software before a dive trip.

Next diving trip is yet to be determined.... possibly to CCV again, in July (I really love that place!). If that doesn't happen then it will be Calif in Aug. Lots of things going on here that have put things on hold for awhile. Ya know, the economy sucks, job security sucks....
Anyhow, I have done a few dozen dives now sans camcorder and I can't wait to start shooting again!

robin

 

[diversteve]

We upgraded the memory on the computer a few months ago so it should be fine with the software now.

It's the processor and video card also. Plus 2GB of ram minimum. Otherwise you'll be able to transfer files but not import them as native AVCHD, so you'd have to downgrade to DV.

Minimum System Requirements
Windows® XP SP2 (SP3), Windows Vista (SP1)
Intel® PentiumHT® or AMD Athlon 1.8 GHz (2.4 GHz or higher recommended)
Intel Pentium HT or AMD Athlon 2.4 GHz or 1.6 GHz Dual core required for Windows Vista
Intel® Core2 Duo 2.4 GHz or higher required for 1440x1080 AVCHD editing
Intel® Core2 Quad 2.66 GHz or higher required for 1920x1080 AVCHD editing
1 GB system memory recommended
2 GB required for AVCHD*, recommended for HD and/or Windows Vista
DirectXŽ® 9 or 10 compatible graphics card with 64 MB (128 MB or higher recommended), 128 MB required for Plug-ins (for Magic Bullet Looks: Pixelshader 2 required, Intel GMA integrated graphics not supported; for VitaScene with HD: 512MB recommended)
- 128 MB required on Windows Vista (256 MB or higher recommended)
- 256 MB required for HD and AVCHD*
DirectX 9 or higher compatible sound card
Import from AVCHD* camcorders (requires USB 2.0 and a UDF driver)

The UDF driver is a download from their website after you install Studio. They don't clearly explain that anywhere.

fwiw, my sister's PC just barely makes the minimum and they have a fast raid array, she isn't able to capture native AVCHD without enough dropouts as to make the footage mostly unusable. They're building a new video editing machine now.

Not sure what you're spending, but have you considered the new Sony HDR-XR500V also. I think housings are available now, someone here or on Wetpixel is shooting the XR520, it's the same camera with double the HDD. I'm really intrigued by what the Exmor sensor will do for low-light u/w shooting. Crutchfield has it for $1149 w/free shipping currently - I may just have to buy one...

 

[robint]

My computer is: 4GB now (we upgraded from 2GB), with 3.2Ghz, Windows XP, Pentium 4. I think we checked out the specs req for Pinnacle Ultimate v.12 and we were good.

No, not considering any other camcorders guys. Yes, I know there is always another great one just around the corner! My budget is limited, too. I have done the research and as I said before, I am not getting a camcorder when there isn't a housing out for it yet. And since I am getting the camcorder this week.... its the HF-11 or HG-21. The research I have done on both of these models meets or exceeds my personal needs.

 

[ronscuba]

If those are my only choices, then I would get the HF11 because it's smaller, cheaper and I would backup my footage daily, negating the internal hard drive advantage. Just my 2 cents, but given the 2 are the same videowise, it doesn't matter much between the 2.

Recent footage from the Ikelite HF100 combo. HF11 and HG21 should look even better with it's higher speed 24bps recording rate.

http://www.vimeo.com/4462337

 

[cfelliot]

I've been thinking about transitioning to Video with the same setup. Please post your post purchase opinion!

While diving I use a Dell Mini-9 and a external WD-Passport USB drive for storage. I don't expect to process in the field, but I dump what I have each night to the WD. SD memory cards are so cheap now that I have 6 and swap in a new one each night along with a charged battery. I go home with 2 copies: one on the SD card and one one on the WD.

 

[robint]

If those are my only choices, then I would get the HF11 because it's smaller, cheaper and I would backup my footage daily, negating the internal hard drive advantage. Just my 2 cents, but given the 2 are the same videowise, it doesn't matter much between the 2.

Recent footage from the Ikelite HF100 combo. HF11 and HG21 should look even better with it's higher speed 24bps recording rate.

Curious turtle comes for a closeup photo on Vimeo

Thanks Ron. I was thinking that going with the HF-11 would force me to review my footage every night, too. I haven't been doing that daily and I really should get in the habit as there is always something good or bad that I pickup when I do review.

Thanks for that link. Yes, the HF-11 and HG-21 are a step up from the HF-100. Not that the HF-100 is bad, but the other two will definitely produce higher quality underwater footage.

What do you think about the "view finder" vs LCD screen issue? I don't know if I like the fact that the HF-11 requires the use of the LCD screen at all times. The HF-11 does have an upgraded LCD which is supposed to be good at all angles but I still worry about how great it might be in bright light outdoors topside. I guess it would work okay though because on all the reviews I have read it hasn't been cited as a big issue.

so now I have one vote for HG-21 and one vote for HF-11.

robin