What does DIR mean?

[Teamcasa]

I think that gear should generally be optimized for UW use. To me, those fins are a crutch to avoid the simple task of removing them, which even in CA surf is not that difficult to learn. If a hinge were to break you would be finless. Although even SS spring straps can break, minimizing the stuff that can break either in the gear box or underwater is important to me. The amphibian has a bunch of unnecessary "features" which are really just additional points of failure. Diving is expensive, cancelling dives due to broken gear is esp. frustrating.

Fair enough.
But for me, the feature benefit outweighs the risk of cancelling a dive.

 

[rjack321]

Fair enough.
But for me, the feature benefit outweighs the risk of cancelling a dive.

Some of my dives end up being in the $150-250 range (or more) each. By the time you fly, rent the car, pay for the hotel, get the cylinders and gas, etc. I do not want to go home empty log booked.

AND this is completely avoiding the whole reliability in a cave or deco overhead environment issue.

OH...and I suppose my Force Fins dont quite work in the DIR world??

Probably not, unless you've figured out a way to avoid the downward finwash at silty sites.

 

[Teamcasa]

Some of my dives end up being in the $150-250 range (or more) each. By the time you fly, rent the car, pay for the hotel, get the cylinders and gas, etc. I do not want to go home empty log booked..

I feel the same way, to a point.
On the very remote chance that the hinge fails and the further remote chance that I did not notice the cracking before the trip plus the high probability that the Dive Op has a spare set of fins to rent, I highly doubt I'd leave without diving.

AND this is completely avoiding the whole reliability in a cave or deco overhead environment issue.

I don't dive in those situations nor do I desire to dive anywhere where a simple opps moment may cost me my life.

OH...and I suppose my Force Fins dont quite work in the DIR world??

Probably not, unless you've figured out a way to avoid the downward finwash at silty sites.

That's a skill issue, not a gear issue.

 

[TSandM]

My goodness, this thread took off today!

A lot of people now use smaller LED backups, even in caves. I think most of the focus nowadays is on having sturdy construction with a twist-on mechanism and bolt-snap attachment point. The details may slowly change based on what "everone" is doing, but the concept of reliability, standardized deploy/stow procedures, etc. will remain.

This is a great example of how things I chafe at, I eventually have to give up and admit were right. I don't like 3 C cell lights -- they're too long for my harness. So I've gone through about half a dozen smaller lights. None has been wholly satisfactory. The closest is the Oxycheq Raider IV, but the reliability track record on those is so spotty that I feel as though it's really only half a backup light for cave diving purposes. The CR 123 batteries ARE relatively hard to find, and ARE expensive. Can you cope with all those issues? Sure. Is such a light optimal? No. Am I still using mine? Yes. Do I understand the arguments why, if I were doing much longer and more complex cave dives, this might very well be a poor choice? You bet.

Regarding the failure of people to know the reasons why . . . I had the opportunity, a long time ago, to take some riding lessons from a genius. He's probably one of the most amazing trainers and teachers in the world in my lifetime. He's been there and done it all, and his current method of amusing himself is to teach the great unwashed. Instead of offering his services to the Olympic athlete (although he does a little of that, too) he goes around the country, teaching backyard riders on backyard horses. If you judged his training or teaching ability by the quality of the riders who identify themselves as his students, you'd think everybody paying his prices was nuts.

You can't necessarily judge the quality of a system by the performance of its adherents, unless you have a large sample. People who write about DIR on the internet vary in their exposure to the system, their level of understand of the system, and (nod to Jeff G) their level of motivation to explain or promote the system.

 

[Gombessa]

I'll look, but why do you consider those fins abominable? Have you used them?

This is clearly hearsay, but I remember hearing from someone who had those fins (I want to say Ber, but I could be making that up) that the hinges snap to the open position when you try to frog kick. That's a pretty huge failure from a DIR perspective.

It makes sense too, the power stroke on a flutter kick is applied to the top of the fin, against the hinge action, whereas on a frog kick it is applied to the bottom.

 

[rjack321]

This is a great example of how things I chafe at, I eventually have to give up and admit were right. I don't like 3 C cell lights -- they're too long for my harness. So I've gone through about half a dozen smaller lights. None has been wholly satisfactory. The closest is the Oxycheq Raider IV, but the reliability track record on those is so spotty that I feel as though it's really only half a backup light for cave diving purposes. The CR 123 batteries ARE relatively hard to find, and ARE expensive. Can you cope with all those issues? Sure. Is such a light optimal? No. Am I still using mine? Yes. Do I understand the arguments why, if I were doing much longer and more complex cave dives, this might very well be a poor choice? You bet.

The 2C cell miniscouts with UK LED modules (or other brands nowadays, the UKs modules are all I know) work great. You can borrow one of mine sometime if you'd like to try it. We only have 2 since we had bought some longer 3 cell lights before they came out and those work ok on my longer torso.

Since the mini-scout is from Halcyon it must be good right!

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

So no one could dive the Forest City with the above gear safely? Even if they stay above 130' and just observe the wreck from above?

I don't know if you meant to do this, but you're quoting me waaaaaaaay out of context. What I said was if I used such a dive as evidence of my expertise when debating procedures with certain people, I could get labeled a "stroke." Note the salient points. I, as in Reg Braithwaite. And talking about the dive and claiming expertise.

If John Chatterton wants to dive the Forest City to 150' on air using vintage gear with his dump valve on his wrist and then argue expertise with GI3, that's another matter. I don't know what would happen. I was simply describing the use of the word as I know it, which is not exactly synonymous with unsafe or even less-than-optimal, but rather with claiming an expertise that is sorely lacking and especially being motivated by a certain type of chest-pounding ego gratification.

 

[Teamcasa]

This is clearly hearsay, but I remember hearing from someone who had those fins (I want to say Ber, but I could be making that up) that the hinges snap to the open position when you try to frog kick. That's a pretty huge failure from a DIR perspective.

It makes sense too, the power stroke on a flutter kick is applied to the top of the fin, against the hinge action, whereas on a frog kick it is applied to the bottom.

Sorry, they frog kick just fine. Ber's initial issue was she could not kick hard enough to lock them into place.

 

[Teamcasa]

I don't know if you meant to do this, but you're quoting me waaaaaaaay out of context.
<snip>
I was simply describing the use of the word as I know it, which is not exactly synonymous with unsafe or even less-than-optimal, but rather with claiming an expertise that is sorely lacking and especially being motivated by a certain type of chest-pounding ego gratification.

OK, fair enough.

 

[Gombessa]

Sorry, they frog kick just fine. Ber's initial issue was she could not kick hard enough to lock them into place.

I think this was after her initial reports, but I can't find it so I'll take you for your word.

However, Ber has mentioned that others have had them become unclipped while diving, and Learn2Dive claims it happened to him as well. I think your position is that "it's not a problem cause you can just kick to relock it," but I believe there are plenty here who would rather have a pair of fins that just aren't susceptible to this potential problem in the first place.

I don't want this to get too off-track from the main discussion. If you want to get your last word in, go for it, and let's move past the flip-flin talk.