Fundies: Like the idea, but not the equipment requirements?

[mikemill]

I would not compare Fundies or Essentials with PPB. They're simply not even vaguely in the same realm of diving.

Well consider where you are posting. To a basic diver what is the difference? You said

It focuses on buoyancy and trim, introduces the non-silting kicks, and goes through air-sharing procedures

so the new piece of information is the kicks. The improvement pieces would be buoyancy and air-sharing. So how does the buoyancy part differ from ppb?


I'll be honest: Fundies sounds interesting. But the attitude about gear just turns me off. I know there are plenty of people that dive with an Air2 (or similar), air integrated dive computer, short hose, and split fins that aren't dying left and right. I'm sure they could benefit from a class like Fundies but that isn't going to happen if they have to redo their entire gear setup.

Even this class's gear requirements are pushing it a bit.

 

[Sas]

Well I have an issue with any group that says their way is the right way (and thus implying everyone else's way is the wrong way). This extends beyond diving. Don't let my dive count fool ya, it is that way because of a long absence (thus I felt my skills had returned to this level).

Low dive count or long absence from diving, my point still stands. Whether or not GUE or UTD push their way as the only right way does not take away from the benefits of their training - by dismissing it as you have done you are kinda throwing out the baby with the bath water there. I will never be a DIR diver (my solo diving is non-negotiable for me), however a lot of that philosophy makes a lot of sense so I will try to keep an open mind.

But this isn't Fundies.

More like Fundies that it is PPB However, from what I see Fundies and Essentials are quite similiar, similar enough to be compared. Unlike PPB and Fundies/Essentials.

Which would be more reason to not have a "only one way" requirement for the class.

Sure. But what was not what you said in your previous post.

 

[djanni]

I'm so glad I do not dive in areas where I need to worry about silting up the place so badly that visability goes to zero.

egad... I might have to learn the frog kick and wear paddles and I might have to have one of those $1,000 HID thingies.

 

[mikemill]

They do the deepest, longest dives out there, with an amazing safety record.

I'm sure they are quite skilled. But for those of us that aren't looking for the deepest nor longest dives, what is the benefit? Put it this way: How do I justify the cost of the equipment change? Now mind you I can justify most things pretty easily


In case I haven't made it clear: I actually think the class offering is a great thing and I hope it goes over well. I just think it is still aways from a class/workshop where you get a feel for what it is all about.

If you all have a workshop/class where all I need is the 5' hose I'll be there

 

[SparticleBrane]

so the new piece of information is the kicks. The improvement pieces would be buoyancy and air-sharing. So how does the buoyancy part differ from ppb?

PPB is generally useless...
Why? Because it's usually taught by instructors who pile weight onto students and don't do anything to help with buoyancy control.

When was the last time you saw someone that looked like this while diving?

I'll be honest: Fundies sounds interesting. But the attitude about gear just turns me off. I know there are plenty of people that dive with an Air2 (or similar), air integrated dive computer, short hose, and split fins that aren't dying left and right.

No, but the reefs are taking a beating.

 

[TSandM]

Mike, the difference is the commitment to quality education. My PPB class consisted of my instructor taking some weight off and putting it back on, and giving me a light and taking it away. And the second dive was an experience dive, going below 60 feet and back up into the shallows. I made the same mistakes throughout, and got no input on how to correct them.

I'm sure there are buoyancy classes out there that are much better than mine was, but I suspect most of them are somewhat similar.

In a Fundies/Essentials type class, you are held to a much higher standard of buoyancy and trim, and your instructor will spend serious time looking at your equipment and the distribution of your weights, and at your posture and technique in the water, to help you optimize your gear and your body for a stable, horizontal position. This is a position you can hold without effort, while distracted, while writing in wetnotes, while executing an air-share. Or you can change it at will, if you want to go head down to look into a hole, or head up to look over a shelf, and remain stable and quiet in the water.

If you haven't seen people like the folks who teach these classes in the water, you just don't have an image of how absolutely solid and stable someone can be in the water. I know I was absolutely floored, the first time I dove with someone with this kind of training, because I had never seen anything like him, and I knew instantly that these skills were something I wanted for myself.

I am not trying to proclaim that this is the only path to diving competence. I simply wanted folks to know that, if replacing your BC is the stumbling block between you and a Fundies class, there is now a more widely available class, very similar to Fundies, that only requires a long hose and paddle fins.

 

[shoredivr]

You can definitely practice on your own, but having demonstrations, instruction and feedback from a real instructor was invaluable to me - one hour spent with them was worth more than a month trying to monkey around by myself.

Other than financial issues and time restraints, I can't imagine why taking extra courses would be perceived as a bad thing.

*edit: I like taking courses, and realize I can't teach myself everything.

 

[SparticleBrane]

I'm sure they are quite skilled. But for those of us that aren't looking for the deepest nor longest dives, what is the benefit? Put it this way: How do I justify the cost of the equipment change?

The benefit is that you get to learn from these guys and listen from their experience. I don't do extra-long multi-hour dives like some of these guys...but it's good to know that if I ever get to that level, I won't ever have to re-learn anything. I just add more gear, get some more knowledge, practice a bit, and off I go...


As TS&M said, the commitment to quality education is up there. The standards for these classes are very high...
As an example from my GUE-F class: to get a "technical" pass (allowing you to continue on with GUE tech/cave training), students must complete all skills in a window of +/- 3ft of depth. Our instructor wanted us to stay AT a depth. Before the dive we would say the target depth is 24ft, and our instructor wanted us to stay there while holding buoyancy as well, while performing all the skills -- bag shoots, air-shares, kicks, valve drills, etc.

Why? No one actually dives like that...
Because the value of being able to hold buoyancy while managing stress and task-loading cannot be over-emphasized. He wasn't teaching us to actually dive like that -- he was just using it as a tool to help us improve. If we can hold buoyancy to ONE FOOT of depth while being task loaded, everything else should be a piece of cake.


Unless you can see the value of diving like this and having this kind of training, it will never make sense. Right now we are trying to get you to see the value of this...

 

[shoredivr]

Unified Team Diving (UTD) International LLC - (253) 632-5100

"Equipment Specifications

UTD equipment configuration is designed to be simple, efficient, and consistent. To get the most from your class it is advisable that you take the course in a complete UTD style system. You do not have to own any UTD equipment. You can rent you [sic] all the equipment (even the back plate and wing if necessary.) To better assist you in preparing for class, we have listed below our required and suggested equipment lists for the class."

"Required Equipment:

o 5 or 7 ft. Primary Regulator Hose. Without this you will not be able to learn and conduct air sharing correctly.
o Fins: non-split variety. Without these you will be unable to learn proficient fin kick.


* Note all equipment can be rented for the course ."


One obstacle removed....

..but fix the typo, eh?

 

[SparticleBrane]

mike -- I think one of the things you are missing is this -- one of the goals of GUE-F or the UTD class is to make diving effortless.

• I don't have to think about my buoyancy. It stays set where I want it...if I want to go up or down, I can do it without thinking almost.
• I don't have to think about kicking to hold position -- I stay where I want to stay.
• I don't have to flail my arms around to move -- I can rotate around 360Žº both ways without moving horizontally or vertically. I can back kick, so I don't have to push off of anything or use my arms to push myself backwards.
• All my dive buddies can do this too, and we essentially know what each other will do in most situations. We are usually thinking almost exactly the same thing.
• We don't kick the reef, or touch it at all in fact...

These classes make diving FUN. Too many people work while they are diving -- totally vertical in the water column, finning to hold buoyancy because they are overweighted and don't know any better (which silts the place to hell, and possibly kills the coral/reef).

Since you don't have to concentrate on all the stuff I previously mentioned, you can now enjoy diving. You can hover inches from something andhttp://www.scubaboard.com/forums/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=272285 not disturb it the tiniest amount...without kicking up any silt at all.

I could go on and on, but words only help so much. These guys have some great videos that shows you what is possible. Plenty more videos out there like that...