Kicked out of Nitrox Class!!

[drdaddy]

There are always two sides of a story. From the way it was presented the LDS owner overreacted and lost future business from this customer. But, I also don't know that attitude presented by this customer. However, I do try to give my business to my LDS and try not to buy on line. When I am interested in some product I research it like crazy. I used to do this by going to different places, calling on phones, and asking for literature to be sent to me. Now I can go on-line.

When I go on line I research like crazy, and while I am doing this I also call my LDS a couple of times and ask what products they carry and/or can get for me. I then make my decision on the product that I want. I call the owner of the shop and tell him that I have no desire to buy on line, tell him what the best on line price is, and then ask him for his price. He almost never can match it, but he does his best to give me his best price. I then buy from him. During our discussions I thank him for all the help the staff gives me and remind him (which he does not need) that I "always" buy from him. Following this procedure, I have no guilt about "pestering" my LDS about so many issues. And if there are any issues with my new product, most of the times they would immediately replace it or at least be completely in charge of any issues, including returning it to the manufacturer.

It would have been a great courtesy of this customer to have at least given his LDS the opportunity to sell him the product. Now, if she would not have even discussed pricing, in this day of the internet, then this LDS will go the way of the dinosaur.

By the way, I put "always" in quotes because I do buy used gear from other divers, either at garage sales or craiglist. I always make sure the gear is not stolen and when I go to my LDS I tell them where I got it. Sure, they would rather I'd buy new from them, but I know any human would not give up the opportunity to help out a buddy (and himself) by buying his used stuff. Also, I always use my LDS to service this equipment.

For my Nitrox Class a few years ago, my brand new Oceanic computer was waiting for me on the counter at my LDS, as were a few others. Since that time I have picked up a backup for myself at a garage sale and they have also serviced it and even tested it for me for any leakage problem. The owner came out (hearing that I'd bought it from a garage sale, and of course remembering he had sold me a new computer a few years before) as the tech was working on it and he mentioned that this older Sunnto (knowing I need bigger numbers as I get up in my 50s) was a great backup computer for me.

LDS

 

[seaducer]

If one LDS tries to charge a "fair price" on training, the only peopel who can recognize the value will be people who don't need the training any more. This leads to having an extremely small market, possibly smaller than can support an LDS.

Correct. However if all the LDS in an area charged about the same for training (like they already do) this is a non issue.

Basically it boils down to, treat training seperate from service seperate from product sales seperate from trip sales, etc.

To say (as the shop owner alledgedly did in the OP) you can buy nothing from me unless you buy everything from me is bat crap crazy talk.

People need to be realistic and realize that options are everywhere for everything. Consumers who exercise those options are not bad people, and smart shop owners can survive the internet sales by concentrating on what those dealers can't provide.

Basically we agree, just you are talking about what is, and I am talking about what I think it should be...

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I don't understand the resistance of most shops to join the 21st Century. Scubatoys, Leisurepro, Diver's Direct and Scuba.com are also brick and morter shops. Expanding sales to the internet has increased their sales tremendously. Any shop owner can set up a website. It seems that most would rather complain about online sales than learn more about the options available.

 

[NudeDiver]

Depends on whether the dealer sells big ass tires and whether he had a bad night the night before... and whether you wandered in telling him how over priced HIS big-assed tires were and how you bought them MUCH cheaper down the road...

If I kicked the shop owner in the crotch, that would make a difference too. But you're adding all kinds of stipulations to the scenario. Why not just take it as presented?

... ummm... because of the same mindset some parents have that their childred should be eternally indebted to them for simple fact they brought them into the world???

I hate this mindset. I think children should be cut loose at 14 and be told to hit the road.

The "I'll take my business elsewhere" threat and the "I'll NOT be refering you to my two friends" threat doesn't hold much water in a world of shotgun marketing... they'll *tell you* they're concerned... but they aren't...

And yet, we're supposed to believe that the problems are an LDS all have to do with cheaper competition on-line and manufacturer pricing policies? Customer service, the very thing the shop owner in the OP was talking about, has no role? Please.

... and I wear t-shorts that read, "I don't have any kids... the schools suck... stop forcing your politics down my throat and give me a DISCOUNT for what you're probably ripping me off for anyway..." or "I have charities I already support... give me a discount so that I can continue my good works."

Can I get some of those shirts?

People will just start whining about the shops charging more for training... the REAL issue is that a lot of the pholks diving really can't afford it... and rather than fessin' up to the fact they'll whine that everybody is stealing them blind, there should be government supports... we should take from the rich (dive shops) to endow the poor (... anybody who really can't afford to dive)... blah... blah... blah...

Well, I agree with the affordability part...but yuo lost me with the Robin Hood part. Eh?

... anybody can sue anybody over anything at any tiime... the real question is how long it will take the judge to stop laughing before they throw it out of court.

Quite true.

(And there *could* be a shark in the water that has a personal vendetta against you... boo... ) :cool2:

There's more than one.

The world ecconomy (or what's left of it) will probably collapse because of your unwillingess to pay way beyond retail in order to keep the universal cash-flow-thingie going... next thing ya' know, Blockbuster will be going to the Government for a bail-out so that millions won't be put out of work causing an ecconomic cascade into mutually assured poverty... no... wait... that's Detroit...

That assumes that a dollar saved in one location does not just get spent at another location.

That depends... do you meticulously balance your spending so that you spend equal amounts between them?

No.

3: People aren't bitchin' because the dive shop is using poor practices... what the heck do most people care...

No, they're bitching if the poor practices affect THEM. Hey, I don't care what some dive shop I will never go to does. But if I arrange training at a facility, make time in my schedule, maybe hire a baby sitter, maybe drive some distance and incur expense, possibly just before making at trip where I counted on using that training, then, yeah, I think I have every right to be pissed off if the facility, arbitrarily and without good reason, cancels a course on me, two hours into the course!

4: If you can't afford diving... DON'T DIVE... (or get a better job)... Diving (dispite what PADI sez) isn't for everybody... it's flippin' expensive and it costs lots of money too. The further you get away from an ocean the more expensive it can become...

Despite the bad spelling, I agree.

... sheesh... how many egos can you fit in one quarry???

Depends on how large the biggest fish is

A nitrox class is expensive for what you get - a book, a card, some instruction time, no dives, and an opportunity to pay more for you gas later. They're often $250 or more, complete. Even if you assume that fully half of that goes to expenses for the book and the certification (which is a generous assumption), that still leaves $125. If the owner is the one teaching the class, that's money in the pocket. To just piss that away, over a sale that has ALREADY been lost, is just stupid - esp. given the ill-will it creates and the loss of all future sales to that customer (and possibly anyone else he tells about it). Even if the owner didn't "need the money" - that's a $125 discount the owner could give someone else, so entice someone to buy there, rather than on the internet. The "**** you customer" attitude is simply incompatible with the "Oh, woe is me, have mercey on the poor LDS" concept.

 

[J.R.]

If I kicked the shop owner in the crotch, that would make a difference too. But you're adding all kinds of stipulations to the scenario. Why not just take it as presented?

...ummm... because "as presented" was predicated on certain other stipulations... not all of which are ususall present in the Customer v. LDS scenarios...

I hate this mindset. I think children should be cut loose at 14 and be told to hit the road.

U rock...

And yet, we're supposed to believe that the problems are an LDS all have to do with cheaper competition on-line and manufacturer pricing policies? Customer service, the very thing the shop owner in the OP was talking about, has no role? Please.

Of course customer service has a role... but I'd point out the the OP only told ONE side of the story... the dive shop owner declined to be tried in this public circus... WE don't know the whole truth and I've rarely run into one of these scenerios where the "innocent victim" was all that innocent... partcularly since the LDS appears to still be doing quite well... if they were routinely as bad as the OP suggests then either their customer base is the dumbest in the world... or there are parts of the story we're not yet privy too... after 5 whole years...

Can I get some of those shirts?

U gonna' make me open up a cafepress store???

Well, I agree with the affordability part...but yuo lost me with the Robin Hood part. Eh?

Inherently lack of affordability generally manifests itself in a call for social justice in which he who can't afford must be enfranchised by an entitlement via a third party... in this case, the LDS. Theory: If I can't afford it... YOU are doing something wrong and must fix it...

Quite true.

Thanks

There's more than one.

Yup... me too...

That assumes that a dollar saved in one location does not just get spent at another location.

True... but it doesn't do ME any good if you spend it in another location...

No.

Good.

No, they're bitching if the poor practices affect THEM. Hey, I don't care what some dive shop I will never go to does. But if I arrange training at a facility, make time in my schedule, maybe hire a baby sitter, maybe drive some distance and incur expense, possibly just before making at trip where I counted on using that training, then, yeah, I think I have every right to be pissed off if the facility, arbitrarily and without good reason, cancels a course on me, two hours into the course!

Assuming this is true... I'd agree... but as I noted above... we don't really KNOW that that is what happened do we??? I can imagine any number of scenarios where something simple went from bad to words... example: the OP starts talking to people in the class about where to buy stuff cheaper. Nothing particularly wrong here.. except that if this took place in the establishment I can see where the LDS owner might get a bit peeved.

Despite the bad spelling, I agree.

... can't punctur-ate either...

Depends on how large the biggest fish is

The "**** you customer" attitude is simply incompatible with the "Oh, woe is me, have mercey on the poor LDS" concept.

Don't disagree... but it's as incompatable as the "The heck with the LDS... oh, woe is me, have mercy on a poor diver who want's to go to Bonaire but can't afford his hobby."

 

[NudeDiver]

...ummm... because "as presented" was predicated on certain other stipulations... not all of which are ususall present in the Customer v. LDS scenarios...

I was talking about my big ass tire scenario

U rock...

I studied geology.

Of course customer service has a role... but I'd point out the the OP only told ONE side of the story... the dive shop owner declined to be tried in this public circus... WE don't know the whole truth and I've rarely run into one of these scenerios where the "innocent victim" was all that innocent...

Of course he did. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the shop owner comes on here and says, "Yep - his story is completely true. I have no defense, and no additional details to support my actions."

Theory: If I can't afford it... YOU are doing something wrong and must fix it...

Alternative Theory: I can't stay in business if I sell you items at a competitive price, therefore, you should feel obligated pay my non-competitive prices, and if you don't, then I am going to not do business with you on the products and services for which I AM competitive.

True... but it doesn't do ME any good if you spend it in another location..

Now see there? You talk about breaking the global economy and you don't even understand how it works. That dollar I spent elsewhere gets spent a bunch more times, and may even end up with you one day. Besides which, by supporting the local grocery store, I help ensure THEY can stay in business, so you can shop there too...

Assuming this is true... I'd agree... but as I noted above... we don't really KNOW that that is what happened do we??? I can imagine any number of scenarios where something simple went from bad to words... example: the OP starts talking to people in the class about where to buy stuff cheaper. Nothing particularly wrong here.. except that if this took place in the establishment I can see where the LDS owner might get a bit peeved.

You have a big deal with working with a scenario AS PRESENTED, I can tell

Just as you say, we don't KNOW what happened - but you're willing to speculate on all kinds of stuff when you have not even a shred of anything as a basis for such speculations

Don't disagree... but it's as incompatable as the "The heck with the LDS... oh, woe is me, have mercy on a poor diver who want's to go to Bonaire but can't afford his hobby."

I'm not sure how

 

[J.R.]

I was talking about my big ass tire scenario

... of course you were...

I studied geology.

... explains it then...

Of course he did. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the shop owner comes on here and says, "Yep - his story is completely true. I have no defense, and no additional details to support my actions."

... big assumption...

Alternative Theory: I can't stay in business if I sell you items at a competitive price, therefore, you should feel obligated pay my non-competitive prices, and if you don't, then I am going to not do business with you on the products and services for which I AM competitive.

... but (... and there always is one)... 'competative' with whom? Competative with an internet facility that doesn't have a presence in your area??? A facility that would require you to (assumption) spend hundreds of dollars to get to for training??? Yea... it DOES seem inequitable... until you get to the fact that in a lot of markets is that the package of goods offered often is what keeps an LDS afloat... take away part of it you don't like and suddenly the parts you want just might not be available.

Now see there? You talk about breaking the global economy and you don't even understand how it works. That dollar I spent elsewhere gets spent a bunch more times, and may even end up with you one day. Besides which, by supporting the local grocery store, I help ensure THEY can stay in business, so you can shop there too...

Yea... but the global ecconomy will STILL benefit if you spend all your bucks with me because I'll be respending them (to restock... of course)...and the cycle will still function... it's just a question of WHO get to reinject the funds at what point... (... I am being a wisea** here... but I think you figured that out already...)

You have a big deal with working with a scenario AS PRESENTED, I can tell

Yea... never liked shotin' craps with somebody else's loaded dice either...

Just as you say, we don't KNOW what happened - but you're willing to speculate on all kinds of stuff when you have not even a shred of anything as a basis for such speculations

Well... consider I'm just balancing the equation by standing as a defence for those without a voice. If the blast was specifically aimed at the LDS in question I'd probably be off cleaning my toenails or something... but it seems to have become a generic "the LDS is evil" thing... and... well... if ONE side gets to speculate why should I be deprived.

I'm not sure how

Simple... look at the individual as their own "business"... they make income from source A and spend it at source B. They try to ensure that they recieve the maximum return on their invested dollars. If they can get something for nothing... they will. If they can buy $20 worth of stuff for $10... they will... and, on the other side of the equation, they'll attempt to extract the maximum amount of 'benefit' for each hour worked (or contract year worked depending on the color of your collar)... We all operate exactly like a store...

So... a customer who walks in and tries to buy at 10% over wholesale without looking at the financial impact that makes on the LDS isn't any different from an LDS who trys to sell at MSRP. Each is attempting to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves... now... somewhere in the middle is that famous "middle ground"...

A LOT of markets out there aren't infinate... unless you're on the internet... and, of course, NOBODY is talking about the manufacturer's and distributer's influence in all of this. Heck... if the manufacturers and distributers would give the Mom and Pop LDS a break... I'm bettin' they'd be happy to pass it along (but that's unlikely because volumn is the name of the game...). If the manuf. and dist. didn't deal in "exclusive territories" your LDS would probably be happy to carry a wider variety of product... there are a lot more "if - then" scenerios... but all of them are rather "blue sky" things too... it ain't gonna' happen... so "the war" goes on...

 

[J.R.]

I don't understand the resistance of most shops to join the 21st Century. Scubatoys, Leisurepro, Diver's Direct and Scuba.com are also brick and morter shops. Expanding sales to the internet has increased their sales tremendously. Any shop owner can set up a website. It seems that most would rather complain about online sales than learn more about the options available.

Scale...

 

[NudeDiver]

JR: I have to reject most of your post as non-responsive.

... but (... and there always is one)... 'competative' with whom?

Your competition is anyone else your potential customer is willing and able to buy from. Whether or not you CHOOSE to compete with anyone else your potential customer is willing and able to buy from - but they are still your competition, as far as the customer is concerned.

Yea... but the global ecconomy will STILL benefit if you spend all your bucks with me because I'll be respending them (to restock... of course)...and the cycle will still function... it's just a question of WHO get to reinject the funds at what point...

Right....so the products and services you offer will still be available if you go out of business, it's just a matter of who will be offering them.

So... a customer who walks in and tries to buy at 10% over wholesale without looking at the financial impact that makes on the LDS isn't any different from an LDS who trys to sell at MSRP. Each is attempting to negotiate the best possible deal for themselves... now... somewhere in the middle is that famous "middle ground"...

If a customer offers you 10% over wholesale, when they can buy it at 5% over wholesale, I'd say the customer as advanced toward the middle ground. Now, if you want to argue where the middle is specifically - that's a different issue.

unless you're on the internet...

But I am! Globalization, baby!

and, of course, NOBODY is talking about the manufacturer's and distributer's influence in all of this. Heck... if the manufacturers and distributers would give the Mom and Pop LDS a break... I'm bettin' they'd be happy to pass it along (but that's unlikely because volumn is the name of the game...).

On one hand, I understand volume discounts. Intuitively, it makes sense. On the other hand, I don't get it, and it doesn't make sense. If a manufacturer has the capacity to produce and deliver 1 million widgets per year, then it should not matter HOW the sales are distributed, let alone discount based on volume. If the world wide demand is 1 million widgets per year, and they can make $100/each without a discount and sell them all, they make $100M. If they discount half of them by 20% due to volume discounts, then they only make a fraction of that. This makes no sense. NOW - if the theory is that by selling such a high volume (through whatever means), then a dealer can INCREASE demand, and thereby improve manufacturer profits, a discount is merited - but ONLY if the discount encourages the dealer to do whatever it is doing to increase demand (in this context, probably selling at a lower price). As I write this, I'm seeing all kinds of ways for this to get more complicated though.

 

[islandwheels]

Ok people here is my story. I went last night to my LDS in the DFW area of Texas for a PADI nitrox class. I wrote my check and went into the class room and filled out all the paperwork and then watched the nitrox video. When the video was over the owner of the shop started talking about the RDP and answering some questions I had.The conversation turned to computers I had already been there two hours.She Judy the owner of the shop asked me if I had a dive computer I said yes she then asked me what kind I replied I have a Suunuto Cobra and a Vytec. I told her I wanted to dive with two in case on a live aboard of or other expensive trip I wanted to cover my bases in case one or the other broke I would not loose any dive time.She understood and then asked do you mine telling me where you bought them and I responded that "you don't want to know." She said oh it's ok I said "on line" Well that was the wrong answer!!! She Judy said"I'll tell you what I am going to do I am going give your check back the class is over because you have no appriciation of a local dive shop and the services we provide and you care more about money than service". WOW my mouth hit the floor I have bought items from her shop and planned on taking other courses with them.Well she went off about black market no warranty or service and other things for about 3 or4 minutes. I was flabber gasted tried to talk to her but it was over. She gave me my check and I was booted out of my nitrox course.WOW!!!WOW!!! Well I do get good service from LP and that matters,and if she is not making enough money on classes raise your rate this is also something she threw at me. Well I did not see a sign posted any where in the shop that said " IF YOU DO NOT BUY ALL YOUR DIVE GEAR HERE YOU CANNOT TAKE CLASSES HERE" Hey she took my money. She will never see another penny!! I have taped my returned check to my monitor and when I am on the LP web page I will look at that check whilel I hit "ADD TO CART"

Well look at this way, at least you got the first nitrox class for free! Some people are just on a high horse, I'd like to tell how my 13 yr old son after completing successfully all the OW skill sets, even dealing successfully some unexpected situations was, denied c card, due to what appears to me, a high horse mind set, but I've determined to put it behind me.