Divemaster touching me

[DRsharky]

Some people traveling abroad do not realize, that some cultures can be very different then theirs. Living in Europe for 30 years, in Canada for 20 and now in Dominican Republic for more then 3 (traveling through Asia as well), I think I've seen lots of differences.
Sexual harassment charges in Mexico? Good luck!!!
Also would be interesting to hear the DM's side of the story

All the best in 2009 to all

 

[psychocabbage]

We are talking about Mexico not Mars (which I am using only as a metaphore for a place with a significantly greater possibility of cultural differences than the U.S.'s immediate geographic neighbor)

Hmmm.. lets see.. Culture difference.. Not even to going to mention the level of poverty here which goes hand in hand with the level of education.

Mexico - 10yrs olds are working at the grocery store bagging..

USA - 10 yr olds are not allowed to work unless they are working for a family business.

No.. Not much difference there..


I wont even touch the differences btw Canadians and Americans.. but I will note that they are more open to sexual harrassment than we are..


I dont think you have really looked at other cultures enough to understand the differences you speak of. Have you had an 11yr old take your order at 11am on a school day at a local restaurant?

 

[PalatkaBoy]

Unfortunately, since you were in Mexico, all you can do is express your discomfort at his behavior at the time it was occuring (or at the earliest opportunity). I've been in many countries and encountered many behaviors that surprise me (and I use that term loosely); because of "cultural differences" I have to choose whether to accept the behavior or remove myself from the situation entirely. Remember, in other countries, you are an island. Your value system based on a different social framework. In some countries there is no such thing as "personal space". People will touch and grab without giving it a second thought. I've been in a pool full of naked men and women who don't even flinch if they bump into you or you into them (German gym). While I don't think what this DM did to you was right (American values and norms), enforcing those values and norms on another culture would be wrong without determining the values and norms of his culture. That would tell you if he knew he was doing something wrong.

 

[drdaddy]

It sounds all that needs to be expressed has been:

1. Listen to Waterpal's perception of the situation
2. Validate Waterpal's feelings
3. Explore the culture that the situation occurred in
4. Try to understand from the Divemaster's perspective/culture
5. In all cultures (except that of a rapist who truly has no compassion or empathy for his victim) a gentle and then a firm "NO" should be respected
5. What could Waterpal do in a future situation (empowerment)?
6. Understand that even if we do everything that is in our power we may still be assaulted, stolen from, raped, maimed, and murdered.
7. Confronting (suing, getting him/her fired, etc) the perpetrator is not necessary for our healing, but may be necessary to protect others
8. Everyone will not agree because there are at least two sides to every story, however, this does not excuse someone who knowingly goes "over the line" - whatever the culture.
9. Sharing and working it through helps healing by receiving compassion (and perspective/ideas) from others
10. Forgiveness and Healing take time

DrDaddy

 

[CoralSeaMan]

Wow, I didn't get that from the posters? I do agree that some disagreed with her and I also admit that those that were "hardest" on her were mostly women! There were a few idiots but I think that most offered very positive information even if it may not have been in agreement with the OP! There is such a thing as constructive criticism. I do not see any reason for the OP to NOT disclose whether or not she tipped the DM and or shop/boat and how much. I don't think that anyone has called her cheap and she wasn't the one thinking of suing the shop (at least I didn't get that from her posts).


That should be a clue right there. We are not dealing with Neanderthals here. If I had a bunch of people that I respect telling me I might have taken something wrong, I would certainly pay attention!


You had better believe it does!
My fiest response was to deck the guy but the more I read and listened the more I learned myself and I began to see that the OP could have and should have been more forceful with her expressing her discomfort. She admitted that!! Good for her!



This seems a little contradictory and confusing. Anyone that has ever traveled the US knows that there are cultural difference within our own borders that could be offensive to others. Mexico is a lot different in some ways. I can honestly see that this guy may have been trying to weasel more money out of this woman. By her not stopping the action it escalated a lot on the second dive.

The OP has admitted that it won't happen again. Good. Good for her and good for anyone that is in her situation.

There actually may be a different degree of tolerance for some conduct but that does not constitute a "cultural difference." In Mexico women are not required to tolerate unwanted attention by men, nor are men free to make uninvited sexual advances to any women they see. Women are not chattel in Mexico.

Do you really believe that during a corporate board meeting Mexican male bankers treat female Mexican bankers the way this DM treated the OP? By the same token are you suggesting that no male Florida DM would ever treat a female diver he was trying to hit on the way this Mexican DM did? (I admit it would be unlikely that a Floridian DM would get into the water).

As for meaningful "cultural difference": In many Middle Eastern areas all women are required to be fully covered outside the home. Not Mexico. There are places where female circumcision is practiced. Not Mexico.

This point is important for one reason: Many Americans continue to see Mexico as the land of some alien cultural where people are ignorant and somehow culturally inferior to the United States. Thus, they tolerate behavior by saying it is a "cultural difference." The DM's behavior may reflect his belief that all American women just want a quickie vacation romance. That is just as ignorant as saying his behavior is a "cultural difference." The DM's misconception need not be tolerated.

 

[CoralSeaMan]

You stated that "many cultural differences are actually oppressive". That seems to me to be a judgement on your part that indicates that YOUR cultural customs are ok, but those of others are not. I would expect that this guy in Mexico (even though he isnt on Mars) finds his actions perfectly ok, provided that he wasnt trying to hit on the OP, but simply help her. None of us know what was in his head at the time.
And lets face it, people belonging to different cultures DO often have very contrary views about what is acceptable behaviour between men and women, be it during leisure time or even business. In my view, if we cant accept this point and be a little flexible in our judgement of others then we shouldnt travel outside our own cultures.

You are quite correct that I am judgmental about some things. In this case I simply do not see any "cultural differences" and I do have some experience in this area. I think there is too much willingness to ignore the obvious here; "...provided that he wasnt trying to hit on the OP..."

As I stated before, this is not an alien culture. The local language is not English, but I recognize the artifacts.
I have no trouble traveling outside of my own culture. I, for instance, consider it useful to speak to the residents in their own language, to learn something about their history, and to try to see the world from their economic and political point of view. But, this is not about being a "little flexible in our judgment of others." I think Americans are too willing to excuse inapproriate behavior in places such as Mexico on the grounds of "cultural differences" largely because they are uninformed about what is appropriate behavior in the local culture. I believe that even if the behavior described by the OP in this situation would be tolerated between Mexicans it would not be considered "appropriate" or expected.

 

[CoralSeaMan]

Hmmm.. lets see.. Culture difference.. Not even to going to mention the level of poverty here which goes hand in hand with the level of education.

Mexico - 10yrs olds are working at the grocery store bagging..

USA - 10 yr olds are not allowed to work unless they are working for a family business.

No.. Not much difference there..


I wont even touch the differences btw Canadians and Americans.. but I will note that they are more open to sexual harrassment than we are..


I dont think you have really looked at other cultures enough to understand the differences you speak of. Have you had an 11yr old take your order at 11am on a school day at a local restaurant?

I agree with you about the proverty issue. What I wonder about is why do you think that children working in a grocery store bagging constitutes a "cultural difference." The children are supposed to be in school (Sometimes they work at the grocery store "in school" in Mexico). 60 years ago they were supposed to be in school in the US too but often were not. 90 years ago both of my grandfathers worked in coal mines at the age of 10.

There are significant economic disparaties between Mexico and the US. The may explain certain behaviors but do not constitute cultural differences. I think it is very hard to say that the behavior the OP was subjected to was somehow uniquely Mexican. The same behavior could happen to women in a similar situation in the US.

I have not had an 11 year old take my order at the local restaurant. I have seen grocery store managers in the U.S. who cannot figure out how to get lunch breaks for their employees even though that violates laws, labor contracts and simple humanity. I do not ascribe that to a "cultural difference." Sometimes, inappropriate behavior is just inappropriate behavior.

I dont think you have really looked at other cultures enough to understand the differences you speak of.

Actually, I am much more aware of such issues than many Americans. I suspect you would find that most people in Mexico would prefer that Americans not see them as a country where men do not respect women and assume that women just want a sexual encounter. On the other hand there are plenty of men in the US who think that way.

 

[sibermike7]

There actually may be a different degree of tolerance for some conduct but that does not constitute a "cultural difference."

WHAT???!!!
That is ridiculous! A cultural difference is not determined by degree! A difference is a difference! That is why our language (and all others I have studied) have these words called modifiers, like adjectives and adverbs.
e.g. big difference, significant difference, slight difference, etc.

In Mexico women are not required to tolerate unwanted attention by men,

Right! So they just say, "NO!!"

Women are not chattel in Mexico.

AGREED!

Do you really believe that during a corporate board meeting Mexican male bankers treat female Mexican bankers the way this DM treated the OP?

No, (IMO that is a asinine example - no application to this situation!) and I don't see bankers attending for the meeting and "buddying up" and dressing in wetsuits!

By the same token are you suggesting that no male Florida DM would ever treat a female diver he was trying to hit on the way this Mexican DM did? (I admit it would be unlikely that a Floridian DM would get into the water).

Huh?

As for meaningful "cultural difference": In many Middle Eastern areas all women are required to be fully covered outside the home. Not Mexico. There are places where female circumcision is practiced. Not Mexico.

Not sure what your point is here... Are you trying to say that unless the difference is a BIGTIME-IN-YOUR-FACE difference, then it doesn't matter.

This point is important for one reason: Many Americans continue to see Mexico as the land of some alien cultural where people are ignorant and somehow culturally inferior to the United States. Thus, they tolerate behavior by saying it is a "cultural difference."

Your basis for this assumption is...

The DM's behavior may reflect his belief that all American women just want a quickie vacation romance. That is just as ignorant as saying his behavior is a "cultural difference." The DM's misconception need not be tolerated.

Wow! Talk about extrapolating assumptions based on speculation!
You have NO IDEA WHAT the DM was thinking or that there even was a "misconception". You only assume that this DM was some kind of psychological genius that pieced all of this together and thus figured out how to get away with inappropriate behavior! Wow. Bravo. You're good.

You act like you have never left Colorado and seen first-hand cultural differences. The point was that whenever we are uncomfortable in a foreign culture we need to analyze the situation and then act accordingly. The OP should have said, "No!" politely, and immediately. Additionally, after stopping the advances at first base, she should not have been offended at the initial "attention" because it may have been a cultural norm. That is how to deal with cultural differences. We CANNOT know what the DM was thinking since we do not have his side of the story.

I don't think an sane rational person believes a woman has to stand for being molested or groped in any culture. What has been pointed out here is that different cultures have different standards of normal and thus tolerated behavior. A woman would feel molested in Iran if someone ripped off her veil and saw her face but a pinch on the backside may be normal in another culture. The point is (beat that dead horse, beat that dead horse - feel like Horton hears the Who and the Wickersham brothers!) she didn't stop the initial advances that may have been norm in that culture and then suffered because of it. She learned. I'll bet it doesn't happen again!

 

[escapeartist]

I'm not sure what exactly the OP experienced, but I do want to make a general comment. Putting on "your big girl panties" and "just dealing" with a man harassing you doesn't always end well. Sometimes it's NOT a matter of "just saying no" or "telling him to back off." I'm sure many sexual assault victims would agree. I have put many men in their place...all I'm saying is it doesn't always work.

I'm not, in any way, saying that this was a sexual assault case but I feel that some of the comments made in response are offensive to women who have experienced serious unwanted sexual attention. Please don't assume all women have the power to ward off a man's advances and end the situation. It takes us back to the days when woman were supposedly "asking" for it.

 

[Dtaine]

I think the biggest thing some people are missing is that we only have one side of the story. All we have is a somewhat vague description of the incident - which gives us more than enough "reasonable doubt" about whether or not it was an actual case of abuse/assault.

Considering this, I won't judge the DM for anything until all sides of the incident are accounted for, which is unlikely to happen.

To those who would already call for the DM's job, lawsuits, or anything along that line, I hope you never have, nor will ever, sit on a jury bench in a court of law.