Is "group" diving common?

[vixtor]

I agree with Walter on what he said, but I would like to add a few things:

There are laws asking you to have a certification in order to drive. That's for other's safety on the road. There are no laws anywere about having a certificate to dive, and this is fine. That's because when diving you are putting your life into danger, not others'. It is your choice to dive, and if you are not properly trained, it is you who is taking the risk (and maybe the rescuer's, but that's another story, because he also accepted the risk of saving you on his own will). The only thing for which certification cards might be useful, is to discuss with an unknown buddy whether you have the proper training level for the dive or not. But even then, they might not mean too much.

This being said, I cannot understand why you expect the dive shop to ask for your c-card. The only reason for which a dive shop should ask for the c-card is to be sure that their equipment is not in danger to be lost at sea together with your body. Why should they be liable for your actions? I would rather think that a better idea is to ask for a money deposit from you (to cover the equipment cost) and allow you to do whatever you wish after that. After all, it's your life.

Then, this whole resort diving together with a boat full of strangers, most of the time as inexperienced as you, is not the best idea for your training level. The best thing to do is to have an instructor near your home town. Take your time to train with him, as much as you need. Training during a 7 days holiday far away is not the best idea. After training, if you liked your instructor, try to become friends. Try to dive with him as much as you can. Get confident in your skills, staying near your instructor - he is somebody who already gained your trust during training. Your open water training really ends when (assuming theoretically no equipment malfunctions, in an imaginary, ideal world) you are able to rely only on yourself for anything else and finish a dive safe, with no help.

 

[Boxcar Overkill]

There's not as many rules to diving as a newly certified diver might expect, and a lot of professional dive ops aren't as conservative as one might want them to be. You have to be ready to be the one who stands up and says, "wait a minute, that's just a stupid idea." Because believe me, there's a lot of guides taking divers on a lot of stupid dives out there.

Being new means being unable to distinguish between an unsafe dive and an idea you haven't encountered yet. An experienced dive buddy is invaluable in that regard. But without that, you just have to hope you don't die in your first 25 or so dives until you start to get locked on. It's an imperfect world.

 

[seaducer]

"Alot of ops in developing countries will not bother much with certifications. In fact you could easily find a dive op to take you on dives to 150 feet on a single 80 straight out of OW class"

Sorry but that is a very broad statement, and one I find from personal experience not the case. The dive centers in these developing countries are run and owned by expats.
From very developed nations.

The pro's working there are either training or living there teaching. THey have access to computers and can do checks on certification with no problem as long as the electricty is working and I sign the exact same documentation to go for a dive there, as I do here in Australia, if of course only if the photo copier has received its ink delivery.

It is not a lot of Ops that will let you do that full stop.

Imagine if something did go wrong? For the expat dive instructor there would be little hope.

Well, there are plenty of dive ops in Belize that will take brand new divers to the Great Blue Hole, a dive where what you are going to see STARTS in 130 fsw. Don't take my word for it. There is an owner of a dive op from Belize on this board who hates that, and complains about it pretty much every time I post it.

It is one thing for an experienced OW diver to make that dive. It is another for someone with 10 dives under their belt.

 

[seaducer]

For Firefyter and Seaducer:

I don't think that you read the OP's post very well. He got put into a position that went against his training and had a entire group who didn't see much of a problem with going against the basic premises of any scuba cert training.

I think he knew what his limitations were. He pretty clearly stated them in his post. Did you hire a divemaster your first dives out of your certs? Prolly not! You probably relied on your skills, for better or worse, or others to watch over you.

I highly doubt that your skills were any better than his! More often than not, that is the case with men! More testosterone than brains!

Drunk drivers do make it home unscathed quite a lot. Doesn't mean it was a smart thing to do!

For the OP: I think what you really wanted was just one person, reassuring you that someone had your back. The buddy that you had been trained to expect. It would have been appropriate for the DM to ask who the buddy teams were and assign any odd men out. However, you always run a risk in that situation that you get a bad buddy. Just because you hired a personal DM doesn't mean you're going to get a good one either, for that matter!

Good luck with your future dives!

I think I read the OP just fine, see my two posts directed at him. Bottom line is that the dive community is made up largely of individuals doing there own thing, and as such(and the way it should be) you are responsible for your own diving, to make sure it is within your limits and comfort.

He learned a tough lesson. I am not getting on his case by any means. Now he knows a little more what to expect on his next trip, and is hopefully better prepared.

As for me personally, well, I had a great instructor who prepared me to dive to OW limits and deal with all the common techniques and equipment. I did not feel the same way as the OP the first time I got on a boat. I do not always see eye to eye with Walter on the standards issue, however one thing I will say is that there are far too many divers granted c cards that are not capable of diving to 50-60 feet, do a common entry, or understand where they are beyond their limits and speak up about it.

Is it the fault of the diver? No, not at first (as in this case). It is the instructor who must impart those qualities. If this repeats over and over you kind of have to shift responsibility however, to the diver who fails to learn.

As even a new OW diver, he should have been OK with a backroll, having simulated it in class, should have been fine with sticking close to the DM or joining another diver or buddy group for the dive. He wasn't, obviously, and either didnt know how to get what he needed, or thought it would just magically appear on the boat. See my Utopia post. I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume his class was lacking in certain key areas.

So he comes here, asks a question, and received some answers. Some flowery, some not, all with the hope he will learn and grow and one day mentor a new nervous diver he sees on a boat somewhere tropical. In the meantime he has some areas of diving he needs mentoring on (such as backrolls) that were not taught in his class(what else was missing?).

I don't blame him for not being prepared, but personal responsibility takes over from here on out. He knows enough now, get help or sit out, but don't expect to be taken care of. Unless you pay extra for it.

 

[fisherdvm]

My opinion is that group diving is common, and important for diver safety in current. In national parks where boats are not moored, the boat captain follows the trail for bubbles. By staying in the group with an SMB equipped DM, one minimizes the chance of being hit by his own boat, or other motorized dive boats drifting over the same reef.

I know others argue that they don't need no "stinking DM" to herd them around, diveopts in these resorts don't appreciate chasing after single group of 2 or 3 divers, and you might be drifting for quite a while until they have picked up the maingroup.

Unless you are familiar with the layout of the local drift dives, a DM often take you down current to one reef, then make a sharp left and swim up current to a second one, and then turn right again, to hit a third. Going on your own might mean drifting over alot of sand, and being very far down current from the boat and the main group.

I'd say, in Cozumel, and some of Cancun's deeper dives, it is better to stay close to the DM and the main group.

 

[marinediva]

I checked out a couple of sites on the dive in Belize. Yet another one to add to my list but besides that it if the dive was lead by an Instructor and that instructor briefed the diver on what was going to happen when they went past 18m as in a Deep adventure dive I cannot see a problem. The dive report I read said they had to get to the bottom on the 40m drop in 3min. Otherwise they were taken back to the surface and the dive abandoned. I cannot image someone who had just done an OW course wanting to do that dive unless they were absolutely confident with themselves in the first place.

I do understand there are shonky shops and instructors, just I object someone saying there is a lot in Developing Countries. Plenty well that is starting to sound like more than a few I would settle for plain old.......there are operators ALL OVER THE WORLD who use and will continue to use unsafe diving practises.

 

[Stu S.]

The "group dive" scenario has worked for years, where and when the water is really clear. Would you rather have an experienced dive leader looking over a (hopefully small) group, or pair together strangers, of unknown skills?

I read on this board where a diver bragged of being paired with a newbie, and losing him real quick. A dive operator has no quality control over the dive when unknown divers pair up.

An agency would not want to teach group diving. For one thing, how clear is "clear" water? In the right conditions, I would prefer this over the "Instant Buddy" method. Nobody would argue that having a buddy you know along is the ideal.

 

[peterbj7]

Folks, wise up! You have a choice with diving, as you do with everything you buy these days. You can look around for the lowest price and go with that regardless, or you can be more discriminating and choose according to what you get for your money.

We live in a discount age, when most people buy most things on price alone. OK, they do a bit of basic research to check that they're not buying an absolute pup, but that's it. How many people who want to buy a camera go to their local shop nowadays? No, they may go there to see if they like the feel of one they have in mind, but they'll actually buy it on-line and save some money. If it's faulty they'll have to deal remotely with the manufacturer of course, and if it was a grey import they're stuffed. But hey, they got it cheaply. Of course, next year when they go to their local shop to check out the latest model they'll find the shop isn't there any more..... In England this happened to hifi shops maybe 20 years ago, and nowadays there aren't any specialist shops any more. Just "pile it high and sell it cheap" discount stores.

Now let's look at diving. Lots of people do exactly the same with dive gear - they check it out at their LDS but buy it on-line. LDS has all the costs of stocking the gear but gets no income. So it isn't long before they fold, and this has been happening all over the world since internet shopping became really big a few years ago. In many areas there now aren't any LDSs, so not only can't you buy gear but you also can't get a tank filled. Take a look - there are distress sales of scuba shop equipment all over the place all the time.

Of course, the quality of scuba gear is pretty low these days, and faults out of the box are the norm. Where are these people going to go to get their gear fixed, or adjusted, or even just assembled? They're on their own, and they only have themselves to blame.

In the retail business generally the world is in a state of flux, with traditional local stores being undermined everywhere by cheap on-line or mail-order stores. How do you think that's all going to turn out?

To get to resort diving. In many areas you still have a distinct choice, between cattle-boat operators who provide an impersonal and overtly unhelpful service but have low prices, and more specialist operators who give a personal service which necessitates small groups. These are the operators who get you know you personally, who understand what your experience has been to date and what YOU need to help you progress as a diver and have a good and safe time. These are the operators who will provide what everyone in this thread seems to think is desirable. But they have to charge more to survive - they have at least the same costs as the big operators but fewer divers to spread them over.

They can't spend the sort of sums on advertising that the big centres do, so if potential customers are as gullible as they seem to be they head straight for the well-advertised centres and low prices. Result - the small businesses don't get enough business and they collapse. Absolutely inevitable. Then there is NO alternative to cattle boats.

In many areas of the world this has already gone to completion. You won't find any small operators in any of the main Red Sea resorts. Go to Sharm-el-Sheik, one of the biggest diving centres in the world, and you'll ONLY find cattle boats You'll be in the water with 30 - 50 other divers, the staff (very few of them - typically one DM to an enormous group) will never get to know you, and no-one will know or care whether you are safe or have a good time. But hey, it's CHEAP!!

In these places you won't find any diving courses with fewer than the maximum allowed number of students. Years ago I tried to do a PADI course in Sharm and couldn't find any shop prepared to put one on, as no shop had more than 4 or 5 students and they wouldn't make enough money. Yet here in Belize I normally run courses with one or two students. I don't make much money but the students get a much better start to their diving careers than they might have had.

You need to make a choice, with a specialist resort dive centre as much as with an LDS, a camera store, a hi-fi shop, or the same in lots of other arenas. USE IT OR LOSE IT.

 

[DiverBen]

I had my OW check out dives on April 20 and 21st '08. With confined water a few weeks before that as we had to wait for the water to thaw. As it was the temps were 40 and 37 degrees on check out day with visibility near zero.

We covered the giant stride and one other entry type, where I sat on the edge of the pool,pushed off and twisted 180 into the water. We did shore dives for my checkout dives. We didn't do or simulate a back roll.

I felt my instructor was very thorough. In fact for the in pool stuff it was just me and her. For the dives it was me, one other guy, a dive master candidate, and the instructor.

 

[krbailey]

While I just spent 45 minutes answering the original poster... Please excuse me for being blunt on this one...

1. Did you, or did you not answer enough questions correctly on your OW certification test to be certified?
2. Did you, or did you not learn enough about the issues that will "kill you" in SCUBA to pass the certification test?
3. Do you, or do you NOT take responsibility for your own diving safety?
4. Do you, or do you not need a refresher course (or, a re-read of your certification manual to remember how NOT to "kill" yourself while diving?
5. The safety of the group?
6. It IS "every person" for them self. How DARE you require me to keep you safe! I'm a diver GD'it! I am responsible for my safety, for my mistakes, for my inequities and for my idiocy. If I choose to do it... GD'it, I choose it of my own free will!

(4 minutes I will never get back in my life time)

Once again, a case of pure selfishness. If you see someone in need of assistance, do you just ignore them? If a diver is doing something wrong, would you let them endanger themselves (or possibly you!) on a dive? "Look at the loose fitting on that guys reg! Hope he's far enough away when it breaks so he can't grab my octo!" The arrogance of some members defies belief!