Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[Boxcar Overkill]

On the subject of dive shop profit... simply because a shop is not "pushing" what you favor, doesn't mean they are doing a disservice to their customer.

It's not that the dive shops are being unreasonable or that the owners are evil. It's just not the best way to provide instruction, in my opinion.

I don't have any dive instructor experience, but for a number of years I was a university professor. During that period, I was forced to spend a lot of time thinking about the role of administration, teacher, and student, and I developed a respect for the importance of the wall of separation between the administration and the teacher.

Based on my experience, I think the right way to teach is for the instructor to be free of pressure from the administration to turn a profit. The students have paid for, and deserve, the unbiased opinion of the professional they've employed. The only way they can do that is if the instructor has the latitude to comment on the gear however they feel is appropriate. (Or wear gear that they believe is most appropriate, in their professional opinion.)

I think a lot of other professional educators would agree with me, but I know a lot of people here may not. They may not see it as a big deal, and really, it isn't that big of a deal. It's just not the right way to do it, and I think that Padi/SSI would do a service to their product if they required shops to respect the academic freedom of their instructors.

 

[neil]

It's just not the right way to do it, and I think that Padi/SSI would do a service to their product if they required shops to respect the academic freedom of their instructors.

Where do you get the idea that PADI instructors have academic freedom? PADI discourages this at every turn.

 

[Thalassamania]

I got my butt kicked in Cave 1 for doing this -- it's a bad habit I've developed, and Danny quite rightly pointed out to me that you run a significant risk of having the long hose hang up on a valve behind you when you do it. And I had actually had that happen to me a couple times in Florida, while doing S-drills. It's really important NOT to push a loop of hose out behind and above your head, when you are diving doubles.

The snorkel issue has more, I fear, to do with the choice of snorkel and how it is worn than with tangling and deployment of the long hose problems.

I use a J tube snorkel with no do-dads. The snorkel keeper is just slightly off to the left of center on my mask strap. When the snorkel is in my mouth the top of the tube projects just up above the middle of my head (where the soft spot used to be), so the keeper is rather well up the barrel. This is in contrast to what most folks do, which is attach their snorkel up near the strap buckle so that it sticks forward and really only works well if they are vertical in the water.

I use a long hose in a fairly conventional way and deploy it with the typical, hand it straight off and bob my head move. I have never had it tangle in my snorkel. I suspect that what we are seeing here is real problems experience by a group of people who dismissed snorkels as a forgone conclusion, and then never really spent the time fine tuning.

All of us are guilty of that in some part of our diving, and I think it good for each of us to try and stamp those tendencies out by learning from those who did not go in with the same preconceived notions.

 

[ahava]

That said, when I teach in the pool, I use a jacket style that the shop sells. This was simply because I have a set of gear that I leave at the pool, and this made the most sense. When I'm going to be demonstrating every skill, I'd prefer that the students see me doing it in the same gear they are using. In other words, it's the diver, not the gear, though I do explain that my pool gear is not ideal for Northeast wreck diving.

Couldn't agree more. If you want to be a DM and lead certified divers, wear what you want. If you are working w/ students , wear what they are wearing. They dont need to have many choices at that level. When teaching someone to drive a car you want them to learn the skill not what kind of car everyone else is driving.

 

[OneBrightGator]

It's not that the dive shops are being unreasonable or that the owners are evil. It's just not the best way to provide instruction, in my opinion.

I don't have any dive instructor experience, but for a number of years I was a university professor. During that period, I was forced to spend a lot of time thinking about the role of administration, teacher, and student, and I developed a respect for the importance of the wall of separation between the administration and the teacher.

Based on my experience, I think the right way to teach is for the instructor to be free of pressure from the administration to turn a profit. The students have paid for, and deserve, the unbiased opinion of the professional they've employed. The only way they can do that is if the instructor has the latitude to comment on the gear however they feel is appropriate. (Or wear gear that they believe is most appropriate, in their professional opinion.)

I think a lot of other professional educators would agree with me, but I know a lot of people here may not. They may not see it as a big deal, and really, it isn't that big of a deal. It's just not the right way to do it, and I think that Padi/SSI would do a service to their product if they required shops to respect the academic freedom of their instructors.

Getting a little prophetic... aren't we?

We're talking about diving here, not Creationism vs. Evolution. The truth is, a bp/w is a bp/w and if you can't recommend a Halcyon setup because of your "ethical" fortitude, then I probably don't want to hear what you have to say about air sharing either. The same is true for every other type of BC. For everyone's favorite mask, fins, plate, wings, BC, reg, etc. there has to be an acceptable substitute from at least one other manufacturer.

 

[Cacia]

New divers need to learn and ask "what is driving this equation?" in order to discern gear choices, purchases, opting in or out on a given dive. Personally, I think the variation should start from the beginning, so they can practice thinking for themselves regarding what would be optimal for them.
Even if you eventually choose a standardized method, you should be aware of why you are making that choice. Stucture, function, etc. Standardizing things too much from the beginning is frought with risks, IMO. They need some curve balls in the pool, and at 30 feet to realize that simple things can get you, to even begin to develop situational awareness.

 

[Ben_ca]

If it were a rocky shore entry or exit, or lots of kelp, he will however need it in his mouth while he swims on his face during his entry and exits and watches where he is going.

And if it is in his pocket, he might lose it. And then when he needs it, he won't have it.

Why would you need a snorkel for kelp?

We have rocky shore entries and lots of kelp... But I find that a snorkel gets in the way more often than it helps...

You cannot snorkel thru kelp... You save enough gas so you can drop down 10 feet and swim underneath the canopy...

I agree with Bob that if you have to use a snorkel instead of your 2 regs you probably have some bigger issues....

 

[Peter Guy]

A little update --

Last night I dove with my wife and her buddy at "the office." I switched over my gear (except the snorkel!) and dove the Balance with a "short" long hose (40"). As I suspected, it trimmed out nicely but there were a couple of "odd" things I needed to recall (in particular that the butt dump is on the right side rather than the left side).

Tomorrow I'll be at the dive site, bright eyed and bushy-tailed with my snorkel attached to my mask strap (and Thal, yes, exactly where it shouldn't be!), Balance BCD, Cobra & Vytec (which I always use no matter what I'm diving!). I think the only things I'll have on that aren't sold at my shop are my drysuit (Bare) and fins (Turtles).

Note -- after reading all of this, I'm wondering if ANYONE from my LDS is reading this and what, if anything, the shop staff would think of it! BTW, I've received a very kind invitation from a SB member to do a NAUI DM course which is quite intriguing.

 

[Thalassamania]

Getting a little prophetic... aren't we?

We're talking about diving here, not Creationism vs. Evolution. The truth is, a bp/w is a bp/w and if you can't recommend a Halcyon setup because of your "ethical" fortitude, then I probably don't want to hear what you have to say about air sharing either. The same is true for every other type of BC. For everyone's favorite mask, fins, plate, wings, BC, reg, etc. there has to be an acceptable substitute from at least one other manufacturer.

I don't think that Boxcar Overkill is advocating what you're pointing to. His comment is more general and, if I may, relates to the ethics of responsibility. Are you, as an instructor, ultimately responsible to your students or to a shop? Frankly I like to see students exposed to as many different types of gear as possible.

Think about it, do you buy your skis from your ski instructor? I know that I do not, but we do talk skis.

 

[Cacia]

NAUI DM course which is quite intriguing.

I heard it is excellent.

I'd like to know what they do now. I think they have some challenging drills.