Skin diving around divers on a safety stop

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I respectfully must disagree, all could be trained but few are. I feel that most of the blame lies with the agencies. In the old days we taught Buddy-Breathing, we taught it and drilled it to where new divers were perfectly comfortable with it and were perfectly comfortable to go out and practice it.

There is nothing in any agency guideline that prevents that at all even now. The main issue is the divers themselves. How many of these practice their skills after finishing the course to keep them fresh? Ive come across people that may have done 20+ mask clears as part of a course but then haven't bothered trying another one for 4 years since. Agencies (or instructors) sadly can't force people to keep updated in their skills.

Lastly I blame the student for not seeking out qulified and competent instruction in the first place,

Entry level a student knows nothing. They dont know enough to be aware there are different agencies yet alone that relative merits and problems with their individual syllabus. At a higher level yes they should know enough to make an informed decision but at entry level that's not possible.

Even the best training on the planet though can't compel a student to keep practising skills long after qualification. Thats down to the individual entirely.

 

[Papa_Bear]

Don't quote me to PB, that's like a red flag in front of a bull. He doesn't believe that you can be trained to avoid panic, his favorite quote is "panic kills," and he has expressed an unwillingness to share air because he lacks confidence in his ability to survive and encounter with a diver who might panic.

Please feel free to speak for yourself, whatever your name is, I can speak for myself just fine! Since you can't seem to understand simple sentiences or concepts!

I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg.

The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsatltteer be in the rghit pclae.

The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh?;

 

[D_B]

Thats just it! I dont ever dive with anyone but my family. I have 0 desire to go diving with any of you people.. ever.. I am not a diver for the social aspect.. Nor for the majestic views underwater.. When I get a seabob, I am sure diving will be what I want it to be! High speed fun! Man and machine!

I sincerely hope that you do keep to yourself and your family, and do not expose any others, on a boat, on the shore, wherever, to your disturbing and unsafe to other divers, attitude

 

[Thalassamania]

There is nothing in any agency guideline that prevents that at all even now. The main issue is the divers themselves. How many of these practice their skills after finishing the course to keep them fresh? Ive come across people that may have done 20+ mask clears as part of a course but then haven't bothered trying another one for 4 years since. Agencies (or instructors) sadly can't force people to keep updated in their skills.

People need to actually master skills before they can practice them. People need to have skills put together into a kata that they are taught to practice. A throw away line about, "practice and keep your skills up" is insufficient. If they have not learned the lesson (whatever it is) then we have not taught it.

Entry level a student knows nothing. They dont know enough to be aware there are different agencies yet alone that relative merits and problems with their individual syllabus. At a higher level yes they should know enough to make an informed decision but at entry level that's not possible.

So who is it that should tell them the Emperor is buck neked?

Even the best training on the planet though can't compel a student to keep practising skills long after qualification. Thats down to the individual entirely.

I have never had a problem teaching my students to keep practicing and teaching them how to practice. If I can do it, any one can. All it takes is recognition of the problem and a commitment on the instructor's part to provide a solution. Once again, if they have not learned the lesson, then we have not taught it.

 

[psychocabbage]

Im sensing a troll here.

Interesting. .Because I do not agree with you, I am a troll and just on forums to rile everyone up? Geesh.. Get over yourself. I have been on other boards for over 8 years with nearly 5K technical posts (our postings in general lounge type settings are not counted.. Only technical banter)..
If we met in person, I am not different.. Well.. Probably a bit more alpha male than most people like but ehh.. I dont really care.

Ive come across people that may have done 20+ mask clears as part of a course but then haven't bothered trying another one for 4 years since. Agencies (or instructors) sadly can't force people to keep updated in their skills.

Entry level a student knows nothing. They dont know enough to be aware there are different agencies yet alone that relative merits and problems with their individual syllabus.

Then they are a sad lot! When I looked into diving I did it as any intelligent person would. Look and research and gather information. PADI stood out as the money grabbing organization and NAUI just plain made sense.

I sincerely hope that you do keep to yourself and your family, and do not expose any others, on a boat, on the shore, wherever, to your disturbing and unsafe to other divers, attitude

Hmmm.. Because I am not going to go out of my way to save your sorry butt, I am unsafe? I am not the one that deviated enough to put myself in any harms way. Its you all that choose to dive in rough seas, high currents or with rented equipment that really are at "RISK".. When my new BC started leaking, I was done until it was fixed. Simple. But some of you out there have this whole notion that you made it that far and by golly you are going to dive! But I am the UNSAFE one?!!??!

When I get on a boat I am not looking around at who may have to save me or who I may have to save. Heck, I dont recognize most anyone under there (unless you have a camera) then I will have fun. When I get on the boat, I am focused on having fun. I know where we are going and pretty much what to expect under there and from there I can goof off! This is no different than if we were all motorcross enthusiasts and I was the one that likes to make my own trails and prefers to jump the insanely large ramps.. thats it.. Wired differently. But still an enthusiast. Just accept it..

 

[D_B]

no, your comment about what a knife is for and how you'll use it, is what puts anyone who dives in your area at more risk
My sorry butt is fine and I will let anyone have air from me ... and he doesnt have to have a bigger knife than I do to get it

 

[Papa_Bear]

First I feel it is his tongue in his cheek as well as his knife in its scabbard! The thing I really like is psycho is exactly what I have been talking about: A person not willing, able, or trained to handle a panicked diver or emergency situation! That is fine and we all know it and we are all better for knowing it! People who won't or can't are better off not getting into a mess that becomes a bigger mess! His attitude is correct for him and his air and life are his! In the dry world if someone on the street has a problem not everyone will or is required to get involved and most don't! Some would cause more problems than solve and that is the point!

It's your air manage it, it's your life protect it, it's your family and responsibility to it! Have fun be safe and know your limitations and don't expect someone else to save your butt! Dive like you're solo, even with a buddy, and you will be a better buddy who can solve your own problems and your buddies!

Thanks Psycho, dive safe!

 

[psychocabbage]

First I feel it is his tongue in his cheek as well as his knife in its scabbard! The thing I really like is psycho is exactly what I have been talking about: A person not willing, able, or trained to handle a panicked diver or emergency situation! That is fine and we all know it and we are all better for knowing it! People who won't or can't are better off not getting into a mess that becomes a bigger mess! His attitude is correct for him and his air and life are his! In the dry world if someone on the street has a problem not everyone will or is required to get involved and most don't! Some would cause more problems than solve and that is the point!

It's your air manage it, it's your life protect it, it's your family and responsibility to it! Have fun be safe and know your limitations and don't expect someone else to save your butt! Dive like you're solo, even with a buddy, and you will be a better buddy who can solve your own problems and your buddies!

Thanks Psycho, dive safe!

NP! Will do! Its the only way..
Who is doing the teaching to these people that is so uptight? That guy needs to stop.

 

[caseybird]

P-cabbage
I still wanna know who "taught" you to use your knife to defend your air? PADI Ninja?
And what did you do in Coz? (if you remember, diving with knives is not allowed.) Throwing starfish? Lethal puffers?
Curious in NY.

 

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People need to actually master skills before they can practice them.

And that is perfectly possible by the standards set by all the agencies. Its down to the instructor to actually do it properly.

If they have not learned the lesson (whatever it is) then we have not taught it.

So the instructor would take some blame for poor teaching (and breaking standards). You cant force a student to learn.
Brutal truth is after the course students dont do things they didnt like at all and forget things.
No matter how good you are if you dont practice you will lose skills and ability.
Short of introducing a mandatory retest you have absolutely no way of compelling students to do these things.

I have never had a problem teaching my students to keep practicing and teaching them how to practice. If I can do it, any one can. All it takes is recognition of the problem and a commitment on the instructor's part to provide a solution. Once again, if they have not learned the lesson, then we have not taught it.

You can teach them the lesson, you can force the mantra of on-going practice needed but you cannot force them to do it once they leave your care. The vast majority of divers after a course dont bother. They've done it, they didnt particularly like some skills but they think they dont need to do it. After all, they've done it before so can do it again if matters. And that mindset continues right up until the time they have to perform a little-used skill and it all goes wrong.

Most divers are NOT regular week in-week-out divers. They dive on holiday for maybe 1 week a year and nothing in between.