Need help choosing setup

[Sputnikboy]

Hello everybody,

after a hiatus I'm finally back diving.
The other day my GoPro 7 had flooded, it served me well but I'm not overly sad: while the videos were good, the pics weren't. I knew that already, mind you, and I thought multiple times to do the "jump" but I always waited too much.

Now, next year two dive trips might be coming, those that you want good pics about. The funny thing is that I have already a Sony A7R IV and both the 90mm macro and the 16-35mm which would be perfect for diving... But the cost of the housing and all the adapters/domes is prohibitive. And more importantly, if something goes wrong, my beloved camera is done for good.

So, here I am, trying to find a compromise.
I need honest opinions: is the TG-7 worth it? While I heard mixed opinions, because people seems to not realize that this isn't a camera for everyday pics like a normal phone can be, what I've seen from samples and videos underwater blow away any GoPro. Can't compare to my Sony, if I ever get a housing and stuff, but the prices is also much much lower.
For the TG-7 I'd go for the OM housing in the case, but I'd need help with the strobes/video lights (is the Backscatter Macro Wide 4300 Underwater Video Light MW-4300 hybrid worth investing?), the rig and eventually what I might need to further improve the wide angle shots/videos capability (if needed).

Context: I love macro, so the choice would be easy from what I read, problem is that the next two trips will be in places where you wanna shoot wide angle. I'm also located in Japan and so far I felt the need to use wide angle 90% of the time.
Any input is very welcome, thanks in advance!

 

[tursiops]

The TG7 with a good wet wide angle --like the Backscatter UWL-M52 120 deg wide angle -- will do a great job. Do not get the 81 deg "air" lens...it does very little for you, but is better than nothing.

 

[Nemrod]

The TG is not really suitable for wide angle due otherwise the limited dynamic range and lack of manual control. There are water contact lenses that will give you a wide angle but the limitations remain. This page has several wide angle lens choices. Can you be happy with the TG, only you can answer:

OM System TG-7, TG-6 & TG-5 Underwater Housing PT-059

OM System TG-7, TG-6 & TG-5 Underwater Housing PT-059: Designed exclusively for the Tough TG-6, this case can function down to a depth of 148 feet. The camera control dial is operable even when the camera is stored in the case for easy exposure compensation control underwater. Two external flash...

www.backscatter.com

For strobes you will want something that works with Olympus RC control such as the Backscatter MF-2 or the considerably stronger YS-D3 (for a TG or Oly camera).

Something that is often not understood about strobes. They are good for a few feet, even the strongest strobes are good to only 6 or so feet. The water column the sunlight passes through removes color rapidly starting with red. By the time we get to 20 or 30 feet red is muted or gone and the other colors are going as well leaving mostly a blue and green. Without strobes all you get is blue colored photos. Compared to the most powerful strobes, the sun has a GN of infinity. Your strobes can only overpower ambient light, especially up shallow, by staying very close to the subject. So you want to shoot a whale shark and light it up. The whale shark is 15 feet away, the light from your strobes passes through 15 feet of water, bounces off of the whale shark and returns through another 15 feet of water, thus traversing 30 feet of water and nearly all of the color will be gone. The water filters and absorbs light from the strobe rapidly. Thus wide angle lenses are needed to allow the photographer to get as close as possible to keep the strobes effectively within range.

You asked for an honest opinion, I am not a TG fan. But the upside is that if you get a good set of strobes they can move to a better camera rig in the future. Why do I not like the TG? No manual control, tiny sensor and lack of dynamic range. The TG is good at macro where the tiny sensor provides a huge depth of field and the microscope mode is intriguing and lack of manual control is not as limiting..

Yes, you have a FF Sony and you have discovered the cost of FF cameras and underwater photography. But AOI does make a budget housing for it and here Backscatter has this Oly outfit (housing by AOI):

Olympus OM-D E-M10 IV Camera & 14-42mm EZ Lens Kit with Backscatter Octo Underwater Housing

Olympus OM-D E-M10 IV Camera & 14-42mm EZ Lens Kit with Backscatter Octo Underwater Housing

www.backscatter.com

And with a wide angle water contact lens can do wide angle, macro and in between. With the YS-D3 strobes or the Backscatter HF-1 strobes you could do wide angle with the AOI housing fitted with this water contact optic:

AOI UWL-09 PRO Underwater 130° Wide Angle Conversion Lens

AOI UWL-09 PRO Underwater 130° Wide Angle Conversion Lens

www.backscatter.com

There is also used systems from Nauticam, Marelux, Isotta as the pro/enthusiast continually trade up. I bought one of these used from a friend recently. I like that it uses my Nauticam optics I already own, does not require expensive, fragile and unreliable flash triggers and is relatively compact:

NA-R50 Housing Pro Package for Canon EOS R50

NA-R50 Housing Pro Package Underwater imaging enthusiasts seek improved performance without sacrificing the compactness and simplicity of their camera systems. World travelers desire a smaller alternative to DSLRs without compromising performance. Addressing these needs, Nauticam introduces the...

www.nauticam.com

I also have a Sony A6400 in a Nauticam NA-6400 now for five years (and going strong) that was essentially a retirement gift. And, I have a FIX aluminum housed Canon S90 I bought around 2009 and it too is still going strong and I still enjoy using it, most recently in Bonaire last May, 165 degree fisheye lens, dual Inon S220 strobes, here.







From my Sony, Nauticam NA-6400, dual Inon S220 strobes, Nauticam WWL-1 lens:







This photo is a good example of how quickly light is removed, up close (about 1 foot) the corals are over exposed, at around two feet the corals and fish are about right on exposure and the background starting around 5 feet, most of the light is gone:



Disclaimer, all of the above is opinion except for the limitations placed on us by the physics of light underwater.

 

[Sputnikboy]

The TG7 with a good wet wide angle --like the Backscatter UWL-M52 120 deg wide angle -- will do a great job. Do not get the 81 deg "air" lens...it does very little for you, but is better than nothing.

Thanks! Will look into that!

 

[Sputnikboy]

The TG is not really suitable for wide angle due otherwise the limited dynamic range and lack of manual control. There are water contact lenses that will give you a wide angle but the limitations remain. This page has several wide angle lens choices. Can you be happy with the TG, only you can answer:

OM System TG-7, TG-6 & TG-5 Underwater Housing PT-059

OM System TG-7, TG-6 & TG-5 Underwater Housing PT-059: Designed exclusively for the Tough TG-6, this case can function down to a depth of 148 feet. The camera control dial is operable even when the camera is stored in the case for easy exposure compensation control underwater. Two external flash...

www.backscatter.com

For strobes you will want something that works with Olympus RC control such as the Backscatter MF-2 or the considerably stronger YS-D3 (for a TG or Oly camera).

Something that is often not understood about strobes. They are good for a few feet, even the strongest strobes are good to only 6 or so feet. The water column the sunlight passes through removes color rapidly starting with red. By the time we get to 20 or 30 feet red is muted or gone and the other colors are going as well leaving mostly a blue and green. Without strobes all you get is blue colored photos. Compared to the most powerful strobes, the sun has a GN of infinity. Your strobes can only overpower ambient light, especially up shallow, by staying very close to the subject. So you want to shoot a whale shark and light it up. The whale shark is 15 feet away, the light from your strobes passes through 15 feet of water, bounces off of the whale shark and returns through another 15 feet of water, thus traversing 30 feet of water and nearly all of the color will be gone. The water filters and absorbs light from the strobe rapidly. Thus wide angle lenses are needed to allow the photographer to get as close as possible to keep the strobes effectively within range.

You asked for an honest opinion, I am not a TG fan. But the upside is that if you get a good set of strobes they can move to a better camera rig in the future. Why do I not like the TG? No manual control, tiny sensor and lack of dynamic range. The TG is good at macro where the tiny sensor provides a huge depth of field and the microscope mode is intriguing and lack of manual control is not as limiting..

Yes, you have a FF Sony and you have discovered the cost of FF cameras and underwater photography. But AOI does make a budget housing for it and here Backscatter has this Oly outfit (housing by AOI):

Olympus OM-D E-M10 IV Camera & 14-42mm EZ Lens Kit with Backscatter Octo Underwater Housing

Olympus OM-D E-M10 IV Camera & 14-42mm EZ Lens Kit with Backscatter Octo Underwater Housing

www.backscatter.com

And with a wide angle water contact lens can do wide angle, macro and in between. With the YS-D3 strobes or the Backscatter HF-1 strobes you could do wide angle with the AOI housing fitted with this water contact optic:

AOI UWL-09 PRO Underwater 130° Wide Angle Conversion Lens

AOI UWL-09 PRO Underwater 130° Wide Angle Conversion Lens

www.backscatter.com

There is also used systems from Nauticam, Marelux, Isotta as the pro/enthusiast continually trade up. I bought one of these used from a friend recently. I like that it uses my Nauticam optics I already own, does not require expensive, fragile and unreliable flash triggers and is relatively compact:

NA-R50 Housing Pro Package for Canon EOS R50

NA-R50 Housing Pro Package Underwater imaging enthusiasts seek improved performance without sacrificing the compactness and simplicity of their camera systems. World travelers desire a smaller alternative to DSLRs without compromising performance. Addressing these needs, Nauticam introduces the...

www.nauticam.com

I also have a Sony A6400 in a Nauticam NA-6400 now for five years (and going strong) that was essentially a retirement gift. And, I have a FIX aluminum housed Canon S90 I bought around 2009 and it too is still going strong and I still enjoy using it, most recently in Bonaire last May, 165 degree fisheye lens, dual Inon S220 strobes, here.







From my Sony, Nauticam NA-6400, dual Inon S220 strobes, Nauticam WWL-1 lens:







This photo is a good example of how quickly light is removed, up close (about 1 foot) the corals are over exposed, at around two feet the corals and fish are about right on exposure and the background starting around 5 feet, most of the light is gone:



Disclaimer, all of the above is opinion except for the limitations placed on us by the physics of light underwater.

Wow, thanks so much for the detailed answer!
This is what I wanted to hear!

Yeah, I read about the limits of the TG-7. But going for a A6700 or even a RX100 would be double the price basically, and it's not I'd use them above water. As I said, technically I could then use my own A7R 4 which is a superlative camera by itself, but the risks aren't worth it (and housing, 2 adapters, dome, rig without lights would be well over 3000 euros). Dynamic range limitations suck, yet again I come from GoPro, which was way way worse and didn't have any macro capability.

I feel I'll have to swallow the limits of the TG-7 for the sake of rather put my hard earned yen into a wide angle adapter, decent video lights. Then, as you said, keep the latter and with time possibly upgrade camera and housing, adapters, maybe a dedicated strobe too. Plan would be to indeed use one day the A7R 4 underwater once I will have another body as my main one... But realistically it will take quite few years, this camera is awesome.

Thanks also for the pic samples, I see what you mean with lights, just like photography in general, I'll need to practice, fail and try again.

Thanks again for the awesome input!

 

[Nemrod]

As I said, technically I could then use my own A7R 4 which is a superlative camera by itself, but the risks aren't worth it (and housing, 2 adapters, dome, rig without lights would be well over 3000 euros).

Plan would be to indeed use one day the A7R 4 underwater once I will have another body as my main one... But realistically it will take quite few years, this camera is awesome.

Just talking out beyond your TG era if you move eventually to something more capable.

Camera housings do not remain in production for a particular model for very long. UW photography is a very tiny market, they will make a run of housings and by then the camera companies have yet another new camera model and nobody wants the old one anymore. And the housing companies follow in pursuit.

Choose a camera that has a housing you can live with available. It is the housing that you interface with once underwater. If the controls are not laid out well, clunky or all functions not available, these are all things that must be considered. Not all cameras are supported with a housing.

As far as risks, theft and floods are the two that concern me. I do carry insurance on the houisng and camera and strobes. Some people self ensure. The risk of a flood with a pro level housing like Nauticam/Marelux is very low as long as proper prep is done, good maintenance and the vacuum system is functional. The housings are serviceable and are built for heavy use.

UW photography and surface photography are very different. UW almost all shots are with strobes, even wide angle is done at no more than a few feet, fast lenses are not needed or even desirable, even inexpensive kit lenses do very well with water contact optics which themselves are highly corrected for underwater use. Underwater fisheye and wide angle lenses are generally preferred as the main lens whereas in surface photos they are niche or special purpose.

A word on the TG housing. I have several friends using them and I see quite a few in use. It is not uncommon to see the diver dumping a little water out of them. But the camera itself is water resistant which is a good thing in such event. An opinion based on having owned similar Canon/Oly housings, they are meant for casual use and are throw away as the cost of service exceeds the cost of the housing. So you might consider a spare O-ring set and even a spare housing. Saying that, they work quite well for their intended purpose, casual photography and introduction to underwater photos. And can produce some spectacular shots, especially macro .

Good luck.

 

[ACHiPo]

Hello everybody,

after a hiatus I'm finally back diving.
The other day my GoPro 7 had flooded, it served me well but I'm not overly sad: while the videos were good, the pics weren't. I knew that already, mind you, and I thought multiple times to do the "jump" but I always waited too much.

Now, next year two dive trips might be coming, those that you want good pics about. The funny thing is that I have already a Sony A7R IV and both the 90mm macro and the 16-35mm which would be perfect for diving... But the cost of the housing and all the adapters/domes is prohibitive. And more importantly, if something goes wrong, my beloved camera is done for good.

So, here I am, trying to find a compromise.
I need honest opinions: is the TG-7 worth it? While I heard mixed opinions, because people seems to not realize that this isn't a camera for everyday pics like a normal phone can be, what I've seen from samples and videos underwater blow away any GoPro. Can't compare to my Sony, if I ever get a housing and stuff, but the prices is also much much lower.
For the TG-7 I'd go for the OM housing in the case, but I'd need help with the strobes/video lights (is the Backscatter Macro Wide 4300 Underwater Video Light MW-4300 hybrid worth investing?), the rig and eventually what I might need to further improve the wide angle shots/videos capability (if needed).

Context: I love macro, so the choice would be easy from what I read, problem is that the next two trips will be in places where you wanna shoot wide angle. I'm also located in Japan and so far I felt the need to use wide angle 90% of the time.
Any input is very welcome, thanks in advance!

I recently went down the same road. When I about ordered the TG-7 and housing, I changed and went for the OM DE-M10 IV with Backscatter housing. Camera and housing are about 50% more than the TG, but seem to have more capability. Regardless, camera and housing are only about 1/3 of what I spent including lights/strobes, et al. I have yet to get wet with the rig, but I'm pretty happy with the little M4/3 camera. I did get the 60 mm Macro lens and port which added to the total tab.

I've seen good/great pics with the TG-7, but I like the flexibility of the M10. I'm still nervous about flooding (at least the TG-7 is nominally waterproof whereas the M10 is definitely not).

If you have glass that you like for your Sony, however, maybe you're better off going that route?

 

[Sputnikboy]

I see what you mean @Nemrod though I just need to "break into" underwater photography somehow while still trying not to break the bank.

TG seems a decent compromise, if I'll manage to recycle whatever light (video or strobe) I'll get.

As for housing on old camera, noted. If anything I might even get a second hand housing for the A7 R4 eventually, but for now I need to wait.

Next year I plan to do two diving trips, I need a decent camera but at the same time I'll rather compromise on this item rather than renounce a whole trip.

 

[Sputnikboy]

I recently went down the same road. When I about ordered the TG-7 and housing, I changed and went for the OM DE-M10 IV with Backscatter housing. Camera and housing are about 50% more than the TG, but seem to have more capability. Regardless, camera and housing are only about 1/3 of what I spent including lights/strobes, et al. I have yet to get wet with the rig, but I'm pretty happy with the little M4/3 camera. I did get the 60 mm Macro lens and port which added to the total tab.

I've seen good/great pics with the TG-7, but I like the flexibility of the M10. I'm still nervous about flooding (at least the TG-7 is nominally waterproof whereas the M10 is definitely not).

If you have glass that you like for your Sony, however, maybe you're better off going that route?

Thanks for the input!

Housing alone is more expensive that the entire TG+housing+hybrid strobe/video light, there's no shortcut around it.
If I add the two adapters for the lenses I'd add more than one grand euros. And not counting everything else.
And as I said, IF something happens, no matter the insurance, I'd be without my main camera for the rest of the travel.

I wanna get into UW photography ofc, but I am and will remain mainly a normal one.
TG has decent macro capability without having to set much in advance, I prefer to start "easy", as UW is vastly different from normal photography.
Before eventually make the "jump" I will see what I can do, understand more, gain experience, then move up, if I'll be able to.

 

[Nemrod]

I see what you mean @Nemrod though I just need to "break into" underwater photography somehow while still trying not to break the bank.

TG seems a decent compromise, if I'll manage to recycle whatever light (video or strobe) I'll get.

As for housing on old camera, noted. If anything I might even get a second hand housing for the A7 R4 eventually, but for now I need to wait.

Next year I plan to do two diving trips, I need a decent camera but at the same time I'll rather compromise on this item rather than renounce a whole trip.

I think you will be very happy with the TG in the OM TG housing, you can do a lot with it.

On more suggestion, if wide angle is your thing, the Ikelite TG houisng has a wide angle dome port accessory that allows the use of the OM system fisheye adapter. I am quite intrigued by it.

Dome Port for Olympus FCON-T02 Kit with Fisheye Lens for OM System TG-7, Olympus TG-6

This kit includes the Dome Port and Olympus FCON-T02 Lens for the OM System Tough TG-7 and Olympus Tough TG-6 camera and Ikelite Housing. The Tough TG-series cameras already shoot out of this world super macro, but haven't really been ideal for ultra wide angle in the past. This special dome...

www.ikelite.com

For this little outfit:

Dome Port for Olympus FCON-T02 Kit with Fisheye Lens for OM System TG-7, Olympus TG-6

This kit includes the Dome Port and Olympus FCON-T02 Lens for the OM System Tough TG-7 and Olympus Tough TG-6 camera and Ikelite Housing. The Tough TG-series cameras already shoot out of this world super macro, but haven't really been ideal for ultra wide angle in the past. This special dome...

www.ikelite.com

Put a little video light on the other side.