This will be my review of the Probe Frogskins, with a comparison to Sharkskin and Lavacore skins thrown in. These three are all more than just skins in that they all provide insulation as well and are all advertised as providing protection similar to a 2 mil wetsuit.
PRODUCT COMPARISON. The Frogskins are NOT a third type of lavacore/sharkskin garment, but are a distinctly different product. Lavacore/sharkskin both use a breatheable middle layer, with very light polar fleece lining and a heavy lycra exterior for stretch. The Frogskins, by contrast, use a 0.5mm ultra-stretch neoprene middle layer, with typical light lycra on the outside much like wetsuit construction. The fleece on the inside is more plush that on lavacore/sharkskin, and is strongly hydrophobic (more about that later and yes, it works).
Probe is a manufacturer in Australia (as is Sharkskin) and Lavacore is part of Hollis. Probe makes wetsuits and insulated skins. Probe seems to be a smaller operation than the other two, who are more widespread (Lavacore in particular is a juggernaut in the U.S. but Sharkskin not far behind). Probe has no retail presence in the U.S. as far as I know, and you need to order from their website. So, no chance to try them on, but Probe has a guaranteed fit return policy (you pay return shipping, they ship new size for free) and a 14 return (you pay return ship) and refund policy for any reason, so long as you have not actually dove the suit or skins.
ORDERING, SHIPPING AND PRICE COMPARISON. Ordering was a cinch through the website. Check out is through Pay Pal but credit cards can be used if you have a card registered with Pay Pal. The size chart is self-explanatory and, as I learned, accurate (unlike the Lavacore bizarre size charts which makes ordering by internet a total crap shoot). Looking at the charts, I fell right on the border between L and XL so I sent an e-mail asking, given my intended use, which would be best. Within a couple of hours, I had an answer and recommendation to get L. THAT is great customer service. I bought two sets each of a longsleeve top and pants. The price is $135 AU each for long sleeve top and pants. Due to exchange rates, there is a 29% savings if you buy in US $. Shipping is a flat $29 AU no matter how much you buy For two frogskin sets it was US$410 including shipping, each set. HOWEVER, I have received an invoice for US$90.00 (for both sets) in customs duties and handling fees from the shipper which will make it $500 or $250 each set. A little cheaper than Lavacore or sharkskin, which run about $280 per set. I ordered on Monday Nov. 30 and had the skins by Friday Dec. 4. Amazing, from Australia.
CONSTRUCTION: The Frogskins have a distinctly higher quality of construction based on outward observation. The seams are sewn with incredibly strong and stretchy stitching which looks like blind, sealed stitching, per the photographs. There are even tighter reinforced stitching loops around the feet and neck to take the strain off when doffing and donning to prevent those areas from stretching out. It is all first rate and to, very high standards. It is also substantially better than the others. Lavacore comes next. On major seams, they use a similar high quality blind-type stitching. On other, minor seams, they use single-row through stitching not as good. The sharkskin was the worst of all, with sloppy, irregular straight-line through-stitching everywhere. See photos. Of course, I cant comment on the quality of the adhesives used to laminate the material layers together, nor can I comment on longevity (except for the lavacore, which has held up pretty well with fairly light use over the last year or so, but is showing a few frays at the seams, but no pilling of the polar fleece inner layer. We dont own any sharkskin). As for looks, that is subjective, but these look very sharp, streamlined, and nice with the green on black contrast.
FIT: Again, there are very large differences in fit, with the Frogskins, for me, being very much better in fit. The Frogskins are cut, sewn and fit like an ultra-light wetsuit. They have no seam construction in the underarms and crotch. They fit like a second skinsimilar to an athletic compression garment. They give complete freedom of movement in all directions. They do not bag or become lose, anywhere. See photos. They have no seals but are very snug at the ankles and wrists and have a great stretchy neck seal that stays sealed even moving you head all around. The pants have a drawcord to prevent water intrusion if you tuck the top into the pants and it works well even with vigorous jumping exercise in the water. Lavacore (as many have observed) has odd cuts, tight in some areas and loose in others. It is not cut like a wetsuit and does not stretch as much or fit as well as the Frogskins. I tried on Sharkskins at the store, side by side with the Frogskins, and the result was the same as the comparison to Lavacore. My theory on this is the different materials used. Nothing beats ultra stretch neoprene for fit. The heavy lycra on Lavacore/Sharkskin just does not stretch as much, or in as many different directions, this might have to do with the breathable middle layer as well. It seems like lavacore/sharkskin compensate by making their garments too tight in certain areas, to make up for the lack of stretch. Anyway, there was a BIG difference in comfort and fit, Frogskins hands down.
IN THE WATER: We use these for strenuous workouts in our pool, which by now is about 72F degrees. When I walked in, the first surprise was that water did not penetrate the Frogskins right away. I was dry for a good 10 seconds! As it seeped in gradually, it was cold but warmed up fast. The skins stayed skin tight with full freedom of movement. With the top tucked in the pants, and the legs in booties, there was very little water flushing through the wrists or neck, which was quite impressive with the aggressive punching, kicking, curling, lunging, stair climbing, running and twisting of our pool workout. I was sweating profusely by the end. My muscles stayed warm and loose. I can tell from this that these will be without equal as an extra insulating layer under a wetsuit, which would be their second use for us. They will also be perfect for summer diving and will probably replace my 3 mil. This is no doubt due to the excellent snug fit and plusher fleece. By comparison, the lavacore has more water flushing, gets looser and baggy but oddly stays restrictive as to motion, and simply is not as warm. As for buoyancy, I did not know what to expect. Our lavacore is neutral and so are sharkskins. I wondered if the Frogskins might be positive because they use neoprene. I do feel that they are a positive when I am fully submerged, but I dont think I would need more than an extra pound of weight to compensate, and that would be well worth it. Again, for use in cool water, no comparison. The fit and the fleece of the Frogskins gives real, tangible warmth, something the lavacore does not really deliver as well.
FEEL WHEN WET BUT OUT OF THE WATER: This test was coming out of the 74 degree pool and into a breezy 65 degree day. When wet, the difference is an order of magnitude better for the Frogskins. The Frogskins shed water very well even though the outer lycra stays wet like a wetsuit does. They stay light and stretchy and snug. The lavacore/sharkskin are heavy, stay wet and become looser and baggy when soaked. For warmth, this is where the Frogskin hydrophobic fleece really makes a difference. Even when on, the fleece lining seems to shed water away from the skin. The fleece stays warm next to the skin, much more so than the others. This is also why it stays so light. If a wind is blowing, you do get some evaporative cooling as the outer side is still damp, but, you also get this with the others and the Frogskins are still warmer than the others. This might have to do with the neoprene not being as breathable and so holding warmth better.
DOFFING AND DONNING: The top and pants were easy to doff and don due to the ultra stretch. A little extra effort was needed around the neck and ankles because of that extra supportive stitching, but no big deal. All in all, about the same ease as the zipperless lavacore or sharkskin. BUT, after they were wet, there was no comparison. When you took off the frogskins, the fleece was already starting to feel dry. After 1 minutes, it WAS dry except around the wrists or ankles just because the water was still draining there. When I put it back on, it was dry, pretty warm and easy to don again. It was an odd feeling, because I knew the outside was still wet, cold and clammy, but it just did not feel that way on the fleece side. It was not the same as everything being dry, and some coolness was felt on the fleece, but it was really incredible. By comparison, well, any owner of lavacore will know, the stuff stays wet and clammy and heavy and nasty to put back on if you have warmed up.
COMFORT ON SURFACE: I already discussed the comfort when it is cool or breezy. The Frogskins are more comfortable and warmer if you leave them on. If you strip them off and then put them back on, even better! But, Lavacore touts itself as breathable and so more comfortable when if you leave it on in hot weather. Since I bought (and I think most people buy) things like this for extra warmth, their performance in cooler conditions seems much more important than when it is hot. In cooler conditions, the Frogskins are better. Still, since I might use these as my main suit in the summer, I have some thoughts. First, even lavacore gets hot as hell (lava, right?) on a Florida beach or boat in summer with temps in the high 90sF. These breathable membranes are just not all they are cracked up to be and even if they let water vapor through from your sweat, they still trap a lot of heat. Lavacore might be cooler merely because it stays wetter than the frogskins. But, no one is going to keep their lavacore on to stay cool on a hot dayjust aint happenin. I strip off my lavacore in the summer, or run water through it to stay cool between dives. So, no difference with the Frogskins and their superior performance in worse conditions is a big advantage and the main reason people would buy anything like this in the first place.
HIGH TECH Lavacore and Sharkskins claim high tech in the use of the breathable material. As I said above, this is not a big deal in the diving context. A breathable membrane adds no warmth or dryness at all under water, for the simple reason that your body moisture cannot breathe into a 100% wet exterior environment. This is the same reason you still sweat under a gore-tex jacket that has been soaked in the rain. On the surface, a breathable membrane adds very little warmth as well, and gives you a little, but not much extra coolness on the surface when you are sitting around waiting for the next dive. Frogskins use a more traditional neoprene suit construction, but claim a different high tech in their hydrophobic fleece lining. This DOES make a big difference in the diving context. The fleece is thicker and does not absorb water. This makes it distinctly warmer when you are under the water, and also on the surface as your body heat combined with the water drainage dries the fleece quickly. Even with the skins on, once the water drains out, the fleece begins to dry. The difference is huge if you doff and then put them back on right before the next dive. There is a video on Probes website showing the fleece lining visibly drying in one of their wetsuits. I duplicated this test, and it is completely for real. You can see the fleece dry out in about 30 seconds, and it is dry. So, I think that Probe has actually thought about what kind of high tech would make the diving experience better, instead of fastening on existing technologies that do not work so well in our specialized realm.
PRODUCT LINE: Probe offers these as a long sleeve top (mens and womens), hooded long sleeve top (unisex), hooded vest top (unisex) and pants (unisex). There are no fullsuits, shorties, or vests/tops with beavertails.
FINAL THOUGHTS It would have been easy to return these (Probe has a good return policy), but I believe our $$ were well spent. Our Lavacore is going to go in the closet. Also, I see that Probe makes a line of 3, 5 and 7 mil wetsuits with the same quick-dry fleece lining. I can only imagine how nice it would be to peel down the suit, put on a jacket between dives, and then peel up a nice, dry, warm suit (at least on the inside) for the next dive. These are going to be #1 on my list when my existing suit finally wears out.
If you are in the market for this type of dive skin, these should be at the top of your list.
PRODUCT COMPARISON. The Frogskins are NOT a third type of lavacore/sharkskin garment, but are a distinctly different product. Lavacore/sharkskin both use a breatheable middle layer, with very light polar fleece lining and a heavy lycra exterior for stretch. The Frogskins, by contrast, use a 0.5mm ultra-stretch neoprene middle layer, with typical light lycra on the outside much like wetsuit construction. The fleece on the inside is more plush that on lavacore/sharkskin, and is strongly hydrophobic (more about that later and yes, it works).
Probe is a manufacturer in Australia (as is Sharkskin) and Lavacore is part of Hollis. Probe makes wetsuits and insulated skins. Probe seems to be a smaller operation than the other two, who are more widespread (Lavacore in particular is a juggernaut in the U.S. but Sharkskin not far behind). Probe has no retail presence in the U.S. as far as I know, and you need to order from their website. So, no chance to try them on, but Probe has a guaranteed fit return policy (you pay return shipping, they ship new size for free) and a 14 return (you pay return ship) and refund policy for any reason, so long as you have not actually dove the suit or skins.
ORDERING, SHIPPING AND PRICE COMPARISON. Ordering was a cinch through the website. Check out is through Pay Pal but credit cards can be used if you have a card registered with Pay Pal. The size chart is self-explanatory and, as I learned, accurate (unlike the Lavacore bizarre size charts which makes ordering by internet a total crap shoot). Looking at the charts, I fell right on the border between L and XL so I sent an e-mail asking, given my intended use, which would be best. Within a couple of hours, I had an answer and recommendation to get L. THAT is great customer service. I bought two sets each of a longsleeve top and pants. The price is $135 AU each for long sleeve top and pants. Due to exchange rates, there is a 29% savings if you buy in US $. Shipping is a flat $29 AU no matter how much you buy For two frogskin sets it was US$410 including shipping, each set. HOWEVER, I have received an invoice for US$90.00 (for both sets) in customs duties and handling fees from the shipper which will make it $500 or $250 each set. A little cheaper than Lavacore or sharkskin, which run about $280 per set. I ordered on Monday Nov. 30 and had the skins by Friday Dec. 4. Amazing, from Australia.
CONSTRUCTION: The Frogskins have a distinctly higher quality of construction based on outward observation. The seams are sewn with incredibly strong and stretchy stitching which looks like blind, sealed stitching, per the photographs. There are even tighter reinforced stitching loops around the feet and neck to take the strain off when doffing and donning to prevent those areas from stretching out. It is all first rate and to, very high standards. It is also substantially better than the others. Lavacore comes next. On major seams, they use a similar high quality blind-type stitching. On other, minor seams, they use single-row through stitching not as good. The sharkskin was the worst of all, with sloppy, irregular straight-line through-stitching everywhere. See photos. Of course, I cant comment on the quality of the adhesives used to laminate the material layers together, nor can I comment on longevity (except for the lavacore, which has held up pretty well with fairly light use over the last year or so, but is showing a few frays at the seams, but no pilling of the polar fleece inner layer. We dont own any sharkskin). As for looks, that is subjective, but these look very sharp, streamlined, and nice with the green on black contrast.
FIT: Again, there are very large differences in fit, with the Frogskins, for me, being very much better in fit. The Frogskins are cut, sewn and fit like an ultra-light wetsuit. They have no seam construction in the underarms and crotch. They fit like a second skinsimilar to an athletic compression garment. They give complete freedom of movement in all directions. They do not bag or become lose, anywhere. See photos. They have no seals but are very snug at the ankles and wrists and have a great stretchy neck seal that stays sealed even moving you head all around. The pants have a drawcord to prevent water intrusion if you tuck the top into the pants and it works well even with vigorous jumping exercise in the water. Lavacore (as many have observed) has odd cuts, tight in some areas and loose in others. It is not cut like a wetsuit and does not stretch as much or fit as well as the Frogskins. I tried on Sharkskins at the store, side by side with the Frogskins, and the result was the same as the comparison to Lavacore. My theory on this is the different materials used. Nothing beats ultra stretch neoprene for fit. The heavy lycra on Lavacore/Sharkskin just does not stretch as much, or in as many different directions, this might have to do with the breathable middle layer as well. It seems like lavacore/sharkskin compensate by making their garments too tight in certain areas, to make up for the lack of stretch. Anyway, there was a BIG difference in comfort and fit, Frogskins hands down.
IN THE WATER: We use these for strenuous workouts in our pool, which by now is about 72F degrees. When I walked in, the first surprise was that water did not penetrate the Frogskins right away. I was dry for a good 10 seconds! As it seeped in gradually, it was cold but warmed up fast. The skins stayed skin tight with full freedom of movement. With the top tucked in the pants, and the legs in booties, there was very little water flushing through the wrists or neck, which was quite impressive with the aggressive punching, kicking, curling, lunging, stair climbing, running and twisting of our pool workout. I was sweating profusely by the end. My muscles stayed warm and loose. I can tell from this that these will be without equal as an extra insulating layer under a wetsuit, which would be their second use for us. They will also be perfect for summer diving and will probably replace my 3 mil. This is no doubt due to the excellent snug fit and plusher fleece. By comparison, the lavacore has more water flushing, gets looser and baggy but oddly stays restrictive as to motion, and simply is not as warm. As for buoyancy, I did not know what to expect. Our lavacore is neutral and so are sharkskins. I wondered if the Frogskins might be positive because they use neoprene. I do feel that they are a positive when I am fully submerged, but I dont think I would need more than an extra pound of weight to compensate, and that would be well worth it. Again, for use in cool water, no comparison. The fit and the fleece of the Frogskins gives real, tangible warmth, something the lavacore does not really deliver as well.
FEEL WHEN WET BUT OUT OF THE WATER: This test was coming out of the 74 degree pool and into a breezy 65 degree day. When wet, the difference is an order of magnitude better for the Frogskins. The Frogskins shed water very well even though the outer lycra stays wet like a wetsuit does. They stay light and stretchy and snug. The lavacore/sharkskin are heavy, stay wet and become looser and baggy when soaked. For warmth, this is where the Frogskin hydrophobic fleece really makes a difference. Even when on, the fleece lining seems to shed water away from the skin. The fleece stays warm next to the skin, much more so than the others. This is also why it stays so light. If a wind is blowing, you do get some evaporative cooling as the outer side is still damp, but, you also get this with the others and the Frogskins are still warmer than the others. This might have to do with the neoprene not being as breathable and so holding warmth better.
DOFFING AND DONNING: The top and pants were easy to doff and don due to the ultra stretch. A little extra effort was needed around the neck and ankles because of that extra supportive stitching, but no big deal. All in all, about the same ease as the zipperless lavacore or sharkskin. BUT, after they were wet, there was no comparison. When you took off the frogskins, the fleece was already starting to feel dry. After 1 minutes, it WAS dry except around the wrists or ankles just because the water was still draining there. When I put it back on, it was dry, pretty warm and easy to don again. It was an odd feeling, because I knew the outside was still wet, cold and clammy, but it just did not feel that way on the fleece side. It was not the same as everything being dry, and some coolness was felt on the fleece, but it was really incredible. By comparison, well, any owner of lavacore will know, the stuff stays wet and clammy and heavy and nasty to put back on if you have warmed up.
COMFORT ON SURFACE: I already discussed the comfort when it is cool or breezy. The Frogskins are more comfortable and warmer if you leave them on. If you strip them off and then put them back on, even better! But, Lavacore touts itself as breathable and so more comfortable when if you leave it on in hot weather. Since I bought (and I think most people buy) things like this for extra warmth, their performance in cooler conditions seems much more important than when it is hot. In cooler conditions, the Frogskins are better. Still, since I might use these as my main suit in the summer, I have some thoughts. First, even lavacore gets hot as hell (lava, right?) on a Florida beach or boat in summer with temps in the high 90sF. These breathable membranes are just not all they are cracked up to be and even if they let water vapor through from your sweat, they still trap a lot of heat. Lavacore might be cooler merely because it stays wetter than the frogskins. But, no one is going to keep their lavacore on to stay cool on a hot dayjust aint happenin. I strip off my lavacore in the summer, or run water through it to stay cool between dives. So, no difference with the Frogskins and their superior performance in worse conditions is a big advantage and the main reason people would buy anything like this in the first place.
HIGH TECH Lavacore and Sharkskins claim high tech in the use of the breathable material. As I said above, this is not a big deal in the diving context. A breathable membrane adds no warmth or dryness at all under water, for the simple reason that your body moisture cannot breathe into a 100% wet exterior environment. This is the same reason you still sweat under a gore-tex jacket that has been soaked in the rain. On the surface, a breathable membrane adds very little warmth as well, and gives you a little, but not much extra coolness on the surface when you are sitting around waiting for the next dive. Frogskins use a more traditional neoprene suit construction, but claim a different high tech in their hydrophobic fleece lining. This DOES make a big difference in the diving context. The fleece is thicker and does not absorb water. This makes it distinctly warmer when you are under the water, and also on the surface as your body heat combined with the water drainage dries the fleece quickly. Even with the skins on, once the water drains out, the fleece begins to dry. The difference is huge if you doff and then put them back on right before the next dive. There is a video on Probes website showing the fleece lining visibly drying in one of their wetsuits. I duplicated this test, and it is completely for real. You can see the fleece dry out in about 30 seconds, and it is dry. So, I think that Probe has actually thought about what kind of high tech would make the diving experience better, instead of fastening on existing technologies that do not work so well in our specialized realm.
PRODUCT LINE: Probe offers these as a long sleeve top (mens and womens), hooded long sleeve top (unisex), hooded vest top (unisex) and pants (unisex). There are no fullsuits, shorties, or vests/tops with beavertails.
FINAL THOUGHTS It would have been easy to return these (Probe has a good return policy), but I believe our $$ were well spent. Our Lavacore is going to go in the closet. Also, I see that Probe makes a line of 3, 5 and 7 mil wetsuits with the same quick-dry fleece lining. I can only imagine how nice it would be to peel down the suit, put on a jacket between dives, and then peel up a nice, dry, warm suit (at least on the inside) for the next dive. These are going to be #1 on my list when my existing suit finally wears out.
If you are in the market for this type of dive skin, these should be at the top of your list.
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