Versatile Sidemount BC?

[MyronGanes]

I'm looking for a high quality versatile and future proof sidemount rig. Basically something I can use for a sidemount configuration as well as mounting them on my back conventionally just so I have the option.

Are there any such products?

 

[tbone1004]

ha, ha, ha, ha......

running joke in sidemount diving, ask 10 sidemount divers about their opinion, and you'll get 12 back. Also, nothing is future proof. While the Nomad XT has been basically unchanged for a decade, it is also not one of the favored rigs outside of Florida, and even there it isn't used all that often. The razor has gone through three different wings in the last decade, xDeep through at least two, etc

There are two types of sidemount rigs basically. Dedicated style, which includes the xDeep/Nomad LTZ etc, and Florida Style which started as something similar to the Dive Rite Nomad XT, Hollis SMS75, etc etc. Very different purposes. The razor style rigs don't have enough lift for diving with thick wetsuits, heavy tanks etc and tend to balloon up on your back, and the florida style rigs are pretty big and bulky and don't do so well with AL80's.
Razor style will not allow you to backmount.
The Nomad XT and SMS75/100 will, but really aren't ideal. I've dove doubles with my XT many times, but it's not nearly as good as my actual wing. Main reason is the sidemount wings put the lift at your hips where you need it, and backmount wings tend to put it up at the shoulders to counter the valve/manifold etc.

There is nothing wrong with single tank sidemount and is much preferred over single tank backmount by many, myself included. Unfortunately this is a jack of all trades, master of none, and you have to deal with the consequences if you choose an all in one rig.

 

[MyronGanes]

ha, ha, ha, ha......

running joke in sidemount diving, ask 10 sidemount divers about their opinion, and you'll get 12 back. Also, nothing is future proof. While the Nomad XT has been basically unchanged for a decade, it is also not one of the favored rigs outside of Florida, and even there it isn't used all that often. The razor has gone through three different wings in the last decade, xDeep through at least two, etc

There are two types of sidemount rigs basically. Dedicated style, which includes the xDeep/Nomad LTZ etc, and Florida Style which started as something similar to the Dive Rite Nomad XT, Hollis SMS75, etc etc. Very different purposes. The razor style rigs don't have enough lift for diving with thick wetsuits, heavy tanks etc and tend to balloon up on your back, and the florida style rigs are pretty big and bulky and don't do so well with AL80's.
Razor style will not allow you to backmount.
The Nomad XT and SMS75/100 will, but really aren't ideal. I've dove doubles with my XT many times, but it's not nearly as good as my actual wing. Main reason is the sidemount wings put the lift at your hips where you need it, and backmount wings tend to put it up at the shoulders to counter the valve/manifold etc.

There is nothing wrong with single tank sidemount and is much preferred over single tank backmount by many, myself included. Unfortunately this is a jack of all trades, master of none, and you have to deal with the consequences if you choose an all in one rig.

Some good info. I'm looking to get into sidemount diving so I'm new to the practice. When diving a single on a sidemount rig are you not unbalanced and tend to roll in the water?

 

[tbone1004]

if you are diving aluminum cylinders no. With certain steel cylinders it is also a nonissue *mainly Faber 45's and 85's*, but with an aluminum cylinder it is a non issue. You will lean a little in the beginning, but you'll also need some lead on a weight belt so you can put that in a location that will allow you to balance out. The AL80's are about 3lbs negative when full so it will lean a little bit for the first 1000psi of an AL80, but after that it will be neutral so it's a nonissue. You will also only notice the lean if you stop moving completely which doesn't happen often and with time your body will automatically correct for it. A few pounds isn't all that much

[video=youtube;pQyU45NXoao]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQyU45NXoao[/video]
[video=youtube;20Nn9gy2m9Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20Nn9gy2m9Q[/video]

 

[decompression]

Tbone is spot on although there are a couple of exceptions that I have a lot of hands on with. Because I'm not a millionaire I need units that are modular, flexible and capable. I have several rigs for training and personal diving and one of the most versatile is the UTD z system. The system is comprised of a webbing harness and wing. The wings can be back mount (single tank) as well. Also, the Sidemount wings can be mounted to a back plate for cold water diving. There are several different wings for different lift and some have adjustable lift. They have baffles to avoid the pillow effect Tbone mentioned. They can be used in traditional sidemount or with the isolatable manifold.

Essentially you start with a harness and wing and can add and change as your skills and goals change. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[stuartv]

I'm looking for a high quality versatile and future proof sidemount rig. Basically something I can use for a sidemount configuration as well as mounting them on my back conventionally just so I have the option.

Are there any such products?

I am also contemplating trying sidemount sometime next year. I have many of the same questions you asked.

I got this new book on sidemount by Rob Neto (who is on SB).

Sidemount Diving - An Almost Comprehensive Guide by Rob Neto [books-smdiving] - $39.00 : Chipola Divers, Sidemount, Technical, & Cave Diving Instruction & Mentoring

I haven't started it yet, but I decided I would read it first, then start asking the questions. Save myself a bunch of typing and people like tbone and deco a bunch of time trying to help me with the basics.

I'm not trying to discourage your questions. I'm happy to be reading the answers. I just figured I'd let you know about the book, in case you didn't already. I've only flipped through a couple of pages so far, but it looks like a solid place to start.

 

[tbone1004]

Jay and I have agreed to disagree on the UTD system, mainly on the manifold concept, but the harness system is fairly generic. One of the downfalls with baffled sidemount wings is the limited lift they can provide, 25-30lbs is about as much as they can go, and like I said above, the trim compromises have to be understood if you are using a sidemount wing for backmount because they have different trim profiles for the diver. The UTD system does have the most versatility in wing selection, though xDeep is chomping at their heels on that. Either way, if 99% of your diving is in Florida or PNW with heavy steel tanks, then those rigs can be made to work with AL80's for the one time a year you need to dive them where the 20lb lift wings can't be made to work with tanks larger than LP85's/HP100's with a drysuit. Is what it is, but you still have two basic choices and that is the Razor/xDeep/UTD style with the webbing harness, or the Dive Rite/Hollis/Halcyon/Hog etc style where they are integrated units. Depends on your primary diving style. I built a webbing harness that I use with AL80's and LP45's, it is similar to the original Razor with a large MSR style bag. It has about 20lbs of lift, and cost me about $150. I also use a customized Dive Rite Nomad for when I need 45lbs of lift for doing multiple stage dives with big steel tanks, and I still keep a backplate system for diving backmount though my Nomad could certainly work well enough for the twice a year I dive backmount

 

[decompression]

Robs book is very good, another that is a bit more comprehensive is "Sidemount guide" by Alexander Hartmann.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DA Aquamaster]

As tbone says...basically...there's no free lunch.

The Nomad XT was designed as an expedition that can go anywhere and do anything from single and double tank back mount diving, to single tank sidemount monkey diving to sidemount doubles diving with anything from a pair of AL 72s all the way to a pair of LP 95s and a few stages and a deco bottle.

The catch is that it's only really good at the large tanks with stages sidemount diving, and that's only in fairly large cave. It'll will handle the smaller cave 2 AL80 stuff ok, but you'll be "stuck" having to squeeze it's greater than necessary bulk through small passage, and while it can be used for back mount it's no where near as stable as a good solid aluminum or stainless steel back plate.

The other flaw is that it carries too much air in the top of the aircell and just about everyone I know who uses one ends up adding weight near the shoulders to help trim it out. But hey, it's got plenty of lift to carry it. Many divers have modified the with Edd Sorenson's old school loop bungee system and it helps carry the bottles better, and it compresses the upper part of the wing a bit more, helping the trim without weights, or with less weight. That's also worth mentioning as the Nomad XT uses a 60 pound wing to generate 50 pounds of lift after all is said and done as the wing has to be constrained a lot to trim properly.

I dive my Nomad for a couple years in Florida and I still have it around here somewhere. However I took my Nomad XT to MX exactly once, and bought an SMS 50 almost immediately upon returning for all future AL 80, AL 72, Steel 72 and Faber LP 85 diving - all of which work well with the SMS 50 wet or dry.

The SMS 50 is wonderful for carrying a pair of AL 80s and an AL 80 stage and maybe a deco bottle and it has enough loft to handle it all in a wet suit. If you strip off the padded (and useless liner it's also very low profile, and for that matter it's pretty minimalist and low profile even if you leave the pad in place. At heart once you dig into it, it's your basic razor style harness with a 23 pound wing attached. It trims out easier, faster and better than any rig I've ever used (although to be fair I never dove my stock but immediately rigged with an old school loop bungee).

The downside of the MS 50 however is that it pretty much maxes out with a pair of painted Faber LP 95s if you are diving wet. If you're diving dry you can float a pair of much older and heavier galvanized Faber or a pair of PST 95s, but the wing will spend the first half of the dive full, and you'll be relying on the more buoyant drysuit to make up for the lift. Which is to say it's not bad for N FL cave dives with LP 95s, provided you're ok with the extra bulk of a drysuit.

Which of course is a problem as I really enjoy diving in a wet suit, particularly in tighter passage. A decent wet suit swims so much easier than even a streamlined neoprene dry suit or something like a Fusion, and it's massively cleaner than the average wrinkly trilam dry suit.

Fast forward another couple years and based on a conversation with Tony Flaris and about a year of looking at it on the wall at Kathy's and I bought a Manta side mount system. It is once again essentially a razor harness, but this time with a 50 pound wing. I've owned it for about a year and it's essentially replaced the Nomad XT for those dives with LP 95s, a stage, a deco bottle, etc. It has as much lift, but with a lot less bulk. With the air dumped from the wing it will get you through some snuggly passages that wouldn't let you pass with a Nomad XT.

If it has a weakness it's the tendency for the wing to form a slight hump in the back when loaded with LP 95s - the "no free lunch" thing again. Now...to be fair it's very streamlined and in a snug spot it squishes down and out just fine, but you do feel it contacting the ceiling in some tight spots. I'd have some video showing exactly what I mean and how it looks in the water, except Marci still confuses the still frame and video modes on the Gopro...

-----

Marci uses a Nomad JT when she's not in here SMS 50 and it's a lot leaner than the XT, being designed as a dedicated sidemount rig, but one that will carry larger steel tanks. It also worked well for her as it's cut for a person with a shorter torso, and as it is not modular, it's lower profile overall than an XT. It fills the same niche as my Manta rig, and between the JT and the SMS 50 she's got it all covered.

-----

The Nomad LTZ and Hollis SMS 75 seems to be aiming for a similar niche as the Manta, with 35 and 40 pounds of lift respectively and thus the ability to carry larger steel tanks and maybe a stage, without being over the top large.

The Nomad LT seems to fill the same niche as the SMS 50, with enough lift (22 pounds) to manage AL 80s, AL72s, Steel 72s and Faber LP 85s without excess bulk.

----

So in conclusion, you've got three or four basic options:

1. A large rig like the XT (50 pounds of lift) or SMS 100 (50 pounds of lift) with or without the ability to back mount doubles. These will do it all, but won't do much of it well.

2. A middle of the road sidemount rig like the LTZ, SMS 75, the Manta (which has 50 pounds of lift, but is still razor'esque clean), or a razor style harness with a 35-40ish pound wing. These will do most things pretty well and are your best bet for a do-everything side mount system - but they won't do back mount.

3. A aluminum tank or small steel tank rig like the SMS 50 or LT, or a razor style harness with a small 20-25 lb wing, which will carry aluminum and small steel tanks quite well in small places, but won't handle stages unless you're diving dry; or

4. A razor style harness with a small 10 pound buoyancy bladder which is pretty much a pair of AL 80s rig only.

 

[decompression]

I just checked the UTD web, there are 8 different SM wings not including the BM wings if you used a plate. Lift ranges from 20-50 lbs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk