uPSIDEdOWN pONY

[kramynot2000]

I didn't say it "upsets" it, I said it "effects" it (which of course it would) and that I prefer the effect when it is upside-down. However, your comment about my trim and buoyancy skills does manage to facilitate not answering the question. Thanks for the help.

Yeah, I know how it is when a thread takes that left turn...

I thought I'd share my experience. For my singles rig I go really minimalist and don't even use an backplate. I have an old wing that's mounted to one of those older plastic backpacks. On times when I want to practice some skills I may go to the local lake by myself and just sling an AL13. My experience was that it does effect my trim and is very valve heavy and seems to pull down alot at the left chest D-ring. I tried adjusting the sling rigging, etc but it didn't do anything.

Anyway, a couple of weekends ago after reading posts on this board about slinging an AL80 with an AL80 on your back, when at a distant dive location, I decided to try it. Although I thought I would start rolling left, surprisingly I couldn't even tell the slung AL80 was there and it was a full tank.

So, my not so scientific conclusion is that the AL13 is just too short to balance out when slung and maybe slinging it backwards may be the answer or mounting it like others have said upside down on the tanks. That's what I do when using it as a drysuit bottle anyway.

Now one difference between the last time I slung an AL13 and when I slung the AL80 was the reg. With the AL80 I was using a reg with a lighter 1st stage. That may have had something to do with it as well.

Forgot to mention one thing, the one difficulty that comes to mind if you sling an AL13 upside down is the hose routing on the bottle. Typically you'd want the 2nd stage up near the chest D-ring but with the valve down at your waist, I'm not sure how you could do this unless you had a long hose but then this may cause problems because the AL13 is so short. I guess you'd just have to play around with getting the right length hose and then rigging it to the bottle and deploying it. It may be kinda tricky with such a short bottle.

 

[David K]

So, what's wrong with slinging it this way?

I had the same trim issues when I first started diving with a 40cu ft deco bottle, over time I have become accustomed to it.

With the valve at your waist it will be very difficult to read the SPG while you are breathing off your stage bottle. If you do have an out of gas situation to deal with knowing how much gas is in your stage bottle will help calm you down at a potentially stressful moment.

Deploying your stage regulator will be much easier if the valve is up near your face where you can see it. If the stage regulator is low near your waist you will have to rely on touch contact, at a stressful moment this won't be optimal.

The other benefit to diving with it in a valve up configuration is that it will prepare you for day when you begin diving with a conventionally sized stage or deco bottle.

If your stage reg includes a brass SPG, you could change it out for a plastic one to reduce the weight of your stage reg. I found that adding a 6cu ft argon bottle also helped, it added more weight on the other end of the fulcrum & counter balanced my deco bottle.

David K

 

[Rick Inman]

you're gonna die

Yes, thank God.
But not for a while.
Last night's dive, I kept the al13 slung the standard way - valve side up. Maybe I'm making too much ado about nothing, but, hey, I'm a very sensitive guy... There were four of us, and one of the guys took off, so we spent 10 minutes following his silt trail. Anyway, I totally forgot about My Little Pony, until I made a point of consciously thinking about it. If I thought about it, I still noticed a difference in the way it effects my trim, so I'm just trying to fine tune I guess.
Anyway, what a board! I get advice that ranges from, The key is to experiment, to Your buoyancy skills suck, to, Use an old plastic backplate, to (my favorite), You're gonna' die. And of course, the standard DIR-off-topic diatribes.
I can feel it. Today is gonna be a great day!

 

[deadend]

But the tank mounted style is apparently still being used by many WKPP members... I guess if it has been successful up to this point, there's isn't much reason to change it... And, to get back on topic, if an argon bottle is fine like this, then why isn't a pony?

Because by god somebody told you it wasn't already. You'll do what they say too or somebody's feeling will get really hurt and nobody would ever want that.

Question of the day: Do dir folks use the boot that was originally on their spg to protect their feelings? :06:

 

[Ryukyu-diver]

Rick Inman, Thanks for your closing remarks. I have been following this silt trail (reading) and I could not believe some of the stuff brought up. Thanks for the laught at the end. OBTW, you forgot to mention tHE kEYBOARD lESSIONS.

 

[Nemrod]

Since this thread has already disolved into the twilight zone, I must say that I still cannot specifically see the difference between DIR and HOG and why oh why does what began as a movement by a few cave divers find itself trying to be morphed into and onto OW diving requirments. Having both cave and OW dived at various times I just fail to see the similarity in equipment requirements. Further, I find it inexplicable why for the most part an OW diver needs to sling all these bottles and carry around all this air, a cave, that is a whole nuther thing!!!!!? Assuming a no deco profile, OW, why do we need all this air? Another question, do you guys actually do decompression dives on purpose with no chamber available? When I began diving this was a big NO NO. While many including me have cheated and done deco dives with no chamber available it is dangerous, I don't see any way that diving a deco profile with out medical and chamber support could be considered safe regardless of how many slung bottles are tied all about ones person except under the most controlled conditions with perhaps the most skilled and disciplined divers which I must admit does not include me or most I have seen. The possible insertion of dangerous marine life, unexpected injury, weather, mechanical malfunctions, sudden illness (appendesitis, tooth ache, wounds, eardrum burst, bleeding, heart attack--not just the divers but tenders as well) all seem to preclude puposeful deco diving with decompression being performed in the water without adequate surface support to complete the recompression/decompression out of the water in event of some misfortune or unusual circumstance.
If HOG is minimal, is that minimal with redundancy or minimal as in only what is absolutely required? What part of HOG/DIR is actually minimalistic?
I assume that Consoles are not HOG or DIR?--true?
Why do DIR divers remove the rubber boots on the SPG?
Why carry slung bottles OW diving as I have seen done on OW no deco dives?
Why would a pony mounted on a tank either way be more hazardous than twin tanks with no manifold? If there was to be entanglement isn't there a knife carried for this purpose?
Why, assuming no deco and OW, would more than 80/100cf be needed and with a pony only to provide a measure of redundancy that would not be needed if one did not dive deeper than twice their breath holding dive capability?
Is DIR /HOG only for cave diving and all this is really about cave diving and I misunderstood?

So as not to cause further discord and misdirect the thread, any answers that are felt needed can be sent private rather than in the thread--as I really want to know and understand and i ThInK tHaT I aM BeGinnInG tO. n

 

[Soggy]

Further, I find it inexplicable why for the most part an OW diver needs to sling all these bottles and carry around all this air, a cave, that is a whole nuther thing!!!!!? Assuming a no deco profile, OW, why do we need all this air?

They don't.

I assume that Consoles are not HOG or DIR?--true?

Consoles are not DIR. The only person who can say what is or is not Hogarthian is Bill Main....everyone else is just making crap up.

Why do DIR divers remove the rubber boots on the SPG?

Because they serve no purpose, trap salt, and hide damage.

Why carry slung bottles OW diving as I have seen done on OW no deco dives?

Who knows why *they* did it, but I see no reason for it and it sure ain't DIR.

Why would a pony mounted on a tank either way be more hazardous than twin tanks with no manifold?

It probably isn't, but independent twins aren't the most brilliant idea either.

If there was to be entanglement isn't there a knife carried for this purpose?

Isn't it better to avoid the entanglement alltogether?

Why, assuming no deco and OW, would more than 80/100cf be needed and with a pony only to provide a measure of redundancy that would not be needed if one did not dive deeper than twice their breath holding dive capability?

I dunno what you mean by "twice their breath holding dive capacity." I've never heard that rule, but it would certainly be prudent to take more than 80 cft of gas for any dive below 80-100 ft if you want a dive of any reasonable duration. Rock bottom on an 100 ft dive is something like 35 cft. That leaves you with ~45cft for the dive itself, which likely wouldn't get you anywhere near the NDLs nor leave you a lot of extra leeway for an underwater emergency where a swim was necessary.

Is DIR /HOG only for cave diving and all this is really about cave diving and I misunderstood?

No, DIR is designed for all recreational/technical (meaning non-commercial) diving. That's the whole point....one gear configuration, one set of procedures, one system.

 

[mweitz]

Those OW divers with stage / deco looking bottles could have been practicing. Why not just ask them? I've not come across a diver (or anyone else for that matter) that isn't interested in telling you all about what they are doing! . If so they sure could have been DIR.

Mark

 

[theskull]

Those OW divers with stage / deco looking bottles could have been practicing. Why not just ask them? I've not come across a diver (or anyone else for that matter) that isn't interested in telling you all about what they are doing! . If so they sure could have been DIR.

Mark

Why do I sometimes dive with a stage bottle on OW no-deco dives?

1. For the practice.
2. For the redundancy on a solo dive (which MAY be a buddy dive with a buddy who has not yet gained my full confidence).
3. To use the gas I paid for in that stage bottle before refilling it with my required gas for the next tech dive I have planned.
4. As a safety measure on deeper dives (100+) with less experienced buddies or during an AOW class.

And a couple slightly more obscure answers. The key word above is sometimes. The majority of my rec dives are made without a stage bottle. Hope this satisfies some of your curiosity, though.

theskull

 

[Nemrod]

"They don't."

Well, apparently some do as Skull mentioned---"4. As a safety measure on deeper dives (100+) with less experienced buddies or during an AOW class."

Usually if I am out on a boat, I am usually alone and not looking to critic others. I politely observe and occasionally learn something and occasionally not. I am more into getting my dive done and watching over my wife if she is along than worrying about others equipement unless they need my help of course.

"Because they serve no purpose, trap salt, and hide damage."

Well, that may be but I have two identical SeaVue SPGs bought circa 1968, one has the boot and the other got lost(by a dive shop servicing the reg). Guess which one is still shiney and happy looking and which one is not so shiney and happy! Guess which one I trust the most?

"Isn't it better to avoid the entanglement altogether?"

Yeah, lol, that is funny, thanks.

"Consoles are not DIR. The only person who can say what is or is not Hogarthian is Bill Main....everyone else is just making crap up."

Yep, that is what I was beginning to learn.

"I dunno what you mean by "twice their breath holding dive capacity." I've never heard that rule,"

Well, that is a very old rule from a set of three basic rules that date back to the beginning of diving. They are not mine. I first heard them in my scuba course in around 66. I have seen them in print and most recently in the book "Solo Diving" though they certainly predate that text. The rules are---follow them or not---

1. Never scuba dive deeper than twice the depth to which you can free dive.
2. Never swim further from the entrance or beginning point of your dive than you can comfortably swim on the surface fully equipped.
3. Rule of thirds (air management), 1/3 out, 1/3 back to the boat, beach or at least to the safety stop, 1/3 in reserve (assuming no deco)
---and of course they actually is a 4th rule which I choose to break regularly--
4. Always dive with a competent buddy, always let someone responsible know where you are etc.

These are not my rules, they come from a time when double hose regs were standard and there was no such thing as auxilary swim augmentation devices (ASADs) otherwise known as a BC. If you think about these rules they make a certain and simple bit of sense. I am not endorsing them, just telling you about them since you asked. I generally follow them but I tend to stretch them some here and there and of course those who cave and tech dive etc have other rules that govern their adventures.
Hey, here is a cool old USD adv. N