Unbalanced Octo Matter?

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GaryFancy

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Hi SB,

I am a new diver and just purchased my first reg set, Aqualung Legend LX (DIN) with the Aqualung Titan Octo. Talking to my LDS they were in the mindset that an octo is for your buddy and as long as they can breath from it that is all that matters. I have come across conflicting information regarding the use of an unbalanced octo with a balanced or over balanced 1st and 2nd stage. Some people say there is no issue and others say that this is a no no as the pressure at depth can cause free flow or leaking.

Since this is a pretty big investment, I am hoping that someone could confirm or squash my concerns of pairing the Titan Octo with the Legend LX. Does my choice of buying a cheaper octo really matter?

Thanks,

GaryFancy
 
it depends on what you subscribe to.

I don't believe in the golden triangle, I think it is unsafe, founded on planning for the best, and not in touch with reality. Proven by personally having my regulator removed from my mouth on multiple occasions. I subscribe to primary donate where my primary second stage is on a longer hose and is the hose I give to someone if they ask for it, but if they take it, well they're going to get it anyone. My secondary second stage is on a very short hose and is on a necklace or suicide strap around my neck. I can get to it without using my hands if I have to, but it is always within easy reach and I never need to wonder where it went.

Now, I prefer to have my second stages match because now it isn't my buddy that has the cheap octo so as long as they can breathe it doesn't matter, it's ME that has the cheap reg and now I have to deal with breathing on it. So no, I disagree with your LDS in their assessment and think that that is an unsafe mentality. I want the potentially panicked diver to have the easiest breathing reg as possible, and I selfishly also want to have the best breathing reg possible.

We have to step back a bit and understand what balanced and unbalanced second stages do as well as the overbalanced first stage. What the sealing diaphragm does to a first stage is increase the IP at some percentage over ambient as you go down. I.e. IP is say 130psi at the surface so you expect it to always be 130psi over ambient pressure regardless of tank pressure and regardless of depth. The overbalancing actually increases that to say 133psi over ambient at 100ft, and so on and so forth. The actual percentages depend on the size differential of the diaphragm itself, the sealing mechanism, and the bit that connects them. I don't know what the delta is on the Legend so don't quote the numbers, but the principal applies to all over-balanced regs. Think thumb tack, big silicone environmental seal, smaller diaphragm. The big seal tanks a total amount of pressure from the water and transmits it onto a smaller area, so the pressure increases. This is not in fact a "feature" it is a design consequence that has been turned into a marketing scheme. Overbalancing is also a little bizarre because it's actually over-compensation since it is due to depth, not tank pressure.



A normal second stage uses a spring to keep the seat closed and the IP of the regulator "fights" the spring. I.e. the spring may put 150psi on the seat, and the IP fights back at 130psi, so your inhalation has to overcome the 20psi differential. They market the overbalancing with as you go deeper that differential gets smaller so the inhalation is easier, but at some point the tables turn and the regs freeflow. It's VERY deep, nowhere near where you'd be going, and nowhere near where all but a handful of divers go. I say normal above because there are various designs of second stages, but the ones you purchased work like that and that is the "normal" design that most regs use. Poseidon being the notable exception to the rule.

Unbalanced regulators have a set spring pressure and if the IP goes up, it gets easier to breathe until it starts freeflowing, and if the IP goes down, it becomes harder to breathe. Any change in IP will be experienced by the diver. Differences of a few PSI are not noticeable for reference, so don't get hung up on that.

Balanced second stages use the IP as part of the "spring" mechanism and are able to compensate for variations in IP. They are particularly useful when paired with an unbalanced first stage or a balanced first stage with imperfect balancing since there will not be a significant change in the WoB. With a modern, well balanced, well maintained first stage, the balancing mechanisms are not required, increase failure points, and don't provide a meaningful benefit to the diver. Most high performance second stages are balanced, and it's not something I'd run away from, just not something that I'd necessarily pay more for. There are other features on the second stages such as metal barrels and heat sinks that typically only come on balanced second stages that are requirements for me in cold water diving.

So, long story short, I dive with unbalanced second stages exclusively, Poseidon Jetstreams, and have no problem with them. I do not typically recommend those regulators to those divers that are staying primarily in the US as I believe there are better value options out there, however I would not return anything if you are happy with the price you paid, and the service you received. You have a very good regulator set that will last you as long as you take care of it.
 
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Where to start.. You'll get a number of replies, I wager.

Overbalanced first stages mean different things to different manufacturers. Aqua-lung uses it to refer to the property of the intermediate gauge pressure increasing with depth. I suppose that could lead to freeflow at depth if your octo is tuned too aggressively. Given your LDS's mindset regarding octos, they are unlikely to tune it aggressively, and you'll be fine.

And that should answer your question.

Others will be along shortly to promote the virtues of primary donate. [edited to add: crossposted with tbone]
 
Thank you both for input, it is greatly appreciated! I think for now I am going to stick with my purchased setup and in the future look at buying another legend lx 2nd stage only.
 
I wouldn't worry about it. Only thing I would do is change hose setups to a primary donate setup. Your regs will be perfectly fine for what you're doing, just make sure that you are comfortable breathing off of the octo. Switch back and forth a few times during the dive to make sure everything is still working and it breathes like you want it to. If it doesn't, have it adjusted
 
A normal second stage uses a spring to open the seat and the IP of the regulator "fights" the spring. I.e. the spring may put 150psi on the seat, and the IP fights back at 130psi, so your inhalation has to overcome the 20psi differential.

Your description of "overbalanced" 1st stages was very accurate. But for the 2nd stage, you've got things a little turned around. The spring is used to keep the valve closed (seat against the orifice), and IP pushes it open. This is how all downstream 2nds (that's what normal) work. The valve is opened when the diver inhales because the inhalation lowers the air pressure in the 2nd stage, which collapses the diaphragm. Resting against the diaphragm is a lever, which is connected to the poppet/seat. When the diaphragm collapses, it moves the lever which mechanically separates the seat from the orifice and opens the valve, allowing air to flow in. When enough air flows in to restore the air pressure to match the ambient water pressure on the outside of the diaphragm, the diaphragm returns to its normal position, which allows the lever to return to it's normal position and the valve closes. By this mechanism all 2nd stages are depth compensating because the flexible diaphragm ensures that the air inside the 2nd stage matches the ambient water pressure.

The difference between balanced and unbalanced 2nd stages is (as you sort of described) the fact that unbalanced 2nd use a mechanical spring alone to counteract the force of IP, and balanced regs divert some of the IP air through a small hole in the seat into a chamber where it "pushes back" against the IP trying to open the valve. This is very effective in compensating for fluctuations in IP. There's only a small mechanical spring that keeps the valve closed when the reg is not pressurized.

In a 2nd stage with all other things equal, balancing will result in overall better performance, but typically it's a pretty slight difference and typically all other things are not equal. Most companies tend to make their balanced 2nds higher performance in general, although there are exceptions.

The big advantage to balanced 2nds is that they can compensate for fluctuations in IP drop that almost always happen to lower performing 1st stages at increasing depth. 1st stages have to work harder as depth increases to supply a higher IP (IP increases with depth) and so under demand, the IP tends to drop more. A balanced 2nd stage can compensate for this. How noticeable it is in real world situations is debatable. With a high performance 1st stage that experiences essentially no increased IP drop under demand at depth, there is no advantage to a balanced 2nd stage.
 
Hi SB,

I am a new diver and just purchased my first reg set, Aqualung Legend LX (DIN) with the Aqualung Titan Octo. Talking to my LDS they were in the mindset that an octo is for your buddy and as long as they can breath from it that is all that matters. I have come across conflicting information regarding the use of an unbalanced octo with a balanced or over balanced 1st and 2nd stage. Some people say there is no issue and others say that this is a no no as the pressure at depth can cause free flow or leaking.

Since this is a pretty big investment, I am hoping that someone could confirm or squash my concerns of pairing the Titan Octo with the Legend LX. Does my choice of buying a cheaper octo really matter?

Thanks,

GaryFancy

Theoretically the higher IP increase as depth increases could make the unbalanced octo free flow. Since I avoid the "overbalanced" 1st stages, I don't how realistic this concern is. But, it might make you feel better to know that in the old days, technical divers mostly used unbalanced alternate 2nd stages because they are simpler and they give some warning of an IP spike because they will begin to leak a bit as IP climbs. Now-a-days most tech divers use balanced 2nds for both primary and alternate, but it really doesn't matter.

I would have advised you to avoid the high priced legend "overbalanced" first stage and just go for a titan, which is based on the conshelf design, maybe the most successful first stage design in history. But I'm sure what you have will work great.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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