Self Reliant/Solo pre-requisites vs DiveMaster pre-requisites

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I do know that none of the students in my OW class was a cop, firefighter, or ex-military. Two of them were in high school. It's not about whether any OW student ever could perform a rescue; it's about whether you can be sure that at least one person in every class will. Otherwise, you're either cancelling the class ("sorry guys; I was counting on at least one Navy Seal showing up, but you all barely passed the swim test and it took all afternoon"), bringing in reinforcements (which some dive shops do, but I don't believe it's required--maybe it should be?), or you may be effectively diving solo, at least for the first couple checkout dives.

Solo is solo. It’s a fairly simple concept. If someone, anyone, is in the water with you, it’s not solo. Doesn’t matter their skill level or age.

 

[MichaelMc]

Solo is solo. It’s a fairly simple concept. If someone, anyone, is in the water with you, it’s not solo. Doesn’t matter their skill level or age.

Being hung up on "solo means one" seems to obscure the issue.
The below have related needs for 'self reliance'.
Some have an aspect of "I'd be safer by myself, but helping them is important to me."

- ... with no diver within miles
- ... with occasional passers by ashore
- ... with friend somewhere else underwater
- ... tagging at edges of generic dive group

- ... with spastic diver you said you'd mentor, off by yourselves
- ... with 'just met 10 minutes ago' students you're doing checkout dives on
- ... with your capable (?), certified, but still rather young child.

 

[Steve_C]

You dove solo to map a quarry for your DM class?

I meant without the instructor present for the dive part while doing some measurements, etc. I did arrange for a dive buddy to do the dives with me. (I was solo certified at that time but I did not dive them solo)

 

[yle]

Who said anything about giving them a card if you were not confident in their abilities? I said it was not unreasonable to not count on them acting as a buddy until they had shown mastery of a skills in an OW dive. That means not counting on them as a buddy until they completed their OW dives and were no longer students.

I'm not sure you understand how the OW course (at least PADI's OW course) is designed. Mastery of all skills is accomplished in the pool (or confined water.) As Jim has alluded to in his original comment, we're not supposed to take students to OW until after they have demonstrated mastery of skills in the pool.

The students repeat some of those skills during their OW dives, but only as a quick review. This is why Jim insists (and I agree with him) that an instructor that is properly adhering to course standards will only take students to OW that have already demonstrated master of their skills.

It is true that the OW environment is different than the typical CW environment. But the idea of "mastery" is such that the student should be able to adequately perform the skill irrespective of the environment.

 

[Fastmarc]

Hmm...

mastery
/ˈmɑːst(ə)ri/

noun
noun: mastery
1.
comprehensive knowledge or skill in a particular subject or activity.
"she played with some mastery"
synonyms: proficiency, ability, capability;

 

[yle]

I do realize that an eternal debate rages over whether or not any OW student actually achieves "mastery" of their skills, as is technically required by the standards of the course. But the point of my post above was that:

Jim insisted earlier that his students know their skills before he takes them to OW.

Loosen made the suggestion that OW students were required to "show mastery of skills on an OW dive."

I attempted to clarify that course standards are on Jim's side: that students are (by course standards) supposed to demonstrate mastery of skills in confined water, but there is no course standard that they demonstrate mastery of skills in OW. The presumption for OW is that they have already "mastered" the skills before they get to OW... just as Jim suggested.

The debate over whether or not typical OW students have actually "mastered" those skills is a separate issue.

 

[loosenit2]

I'm not sure you understand how the OW course (at least PADI's OW course) is designed. Mastery of all skills is accomplished in the pool (or confined water.) As Jim has alluded to in his original comment, we're not supposed to take students to OW until after they have demonstrated mastery of skills in the pool.

The students repeat some of those skills during their OW dives, but only as a quick review. This is why Jim insists (and I agree with him) that an instructor that is properly adhering to course standards will only take students to OW that have already demonstrated master of their skills.

It is true that the OW environment is different than the typical CW environment. But the idea of "mastery" is such that the student should be able to adequately perform the skill irrespective of the environment.

PADI Standards for OW Dive 1 require that students complete OW Diver Course Development 1 (including quiz and Confined Water Dive #1 or Open Water Diver Course Knowledge Development 1-3 (including quizzes and Confined Water Dives 1-3.

For OW Dive 2 PADI requires that students compete OW Diver Coure Knowledge Development 1-3 (including quizzes), OW Diver Confined Water Dives 1-3 and 10-minute swim/float without using any swim aids.

It is not until OW dives 3-4 that students are required to have completed all Open Water Diver Course Knowledge Devleopment segments, Quizzes 1-4 and all Confined Water Dives.

Final exams don’t have to be completed until after after all OW dives are complete.

How can a student exhibit mastery of skills necessary to be a buddy if they are not required to complete confined water skills prior to an OW dive?

Understand many instructors do not teach in this order but PADI allows it so someone is doing it.

 

[Fastmarc]

I wonder at what stage does each of us consider ourselves to be 'mastery' of our skills?

 

[TMHeimer]

There was a thread a few years back specifically about what "mastery" is. It is very hard to give an exact definition. Compared to a beginning or high school (well most) clarinetist, I am well beyond having mastered the clarinet, and I have a Masters Degree in it. Compared to a major symphony player, I have yet to master it. If you can do a dive skill perfectly 9 out of 10 times, but not 10 for 10, have you mastered it?

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Being hung up on "solo means one" seems to obscure the issue.
The below have related needs for 'self reliance'.
Some have an aspect of "I'd be safer by myself, but helping them is important to me."

- ... with no diver within miles
- ... with occasional passers by ashore
- ... with friend somewhere else underwater
- ... tagging at edges of generic dive group

- ... with spastic diver you said you'd mentor, off by yourselves
- ... with 'just met 10 minutes ago' students you're doing checkout dives on
- ... with your capable (?), certified, but still rather young child.

Well... it’s par for the course where actual words are now meaningless...

ScubaBoard Conventions:

Solo Dive: No longer has to actually be solo and/or depends on skill level of other diver(s). Got it...

So what do you suggest we now call actual solo diving? Maybe Han Solo?
That would make a solo diver’s scooter the millennium falcon.

Decompression Dive: Every dive is now a decompression dive. Ergo, all divers are now tech divers now. Ok...

So, now what should we call actual tech divers? What do you call a solo tech diver on a scooter? Han Solo ridding a Millennium Falcon on his way to Hell?

Backing off a 1/4 turn on a valve: You’re all gonna die!

Been doing it since 1987 and I’m not dead yet. Hmm... I wonder if Han Solo backs off his valves?

I’m curious how instructors that think they’re solo diving square that with agency standards? Why don’t agencies make an accompanying DM mandatory so the instructor doesn’t have to risk his/her life to teach? And, after all these years of telling solo divers they’re going to die, some now claim to have been diving solo all along. Interesting...

I think there’s a word for that...