Search Dogs for Water

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off the grid

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Messages
60
Reaction score
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Location
Helena, Montana
# of dives
200 - 499
We recently recovered a diver who had been in the water less than 24 hours (temps in the mid 40s) at a depth of about 25 feet. A dog team had spotted on two locations neither of which were where we found him. He was in a dry suit with only the face exposed. Does anyone know if that is enough time for dogs to actually start picking up a scent. Just tryinng to find out if there was any sense using the dogs so early.
 
Only used dogs twice, both times were VICs in shorts and T-shirts,
both times were after three or four days,
both times, dismal failures.

I had asked the two dog handlers your same questions, they didn't really have a solid answer. Maybe it is their version of the "How long before the body floats?" question we always seem to get...
 
Yeah I feel we spent a fair amount of time and energy looking at those locations when we could have been more productive to a general search, which based on where we eventually located him, we would have saved a lot of time. Hind sight - 20/20.
 
We've had good luck. Even a confirmed hit at 350'. It's never 100% but it is another tool in the tool box. Don't quit using it because of a couple of misses. If you do that's like getting rid of the divers because every operation isn't 100%. Use every tool you can.
 
The State Cops claimed their dog could smell a body that was 200 feet underwater.
 
When you get right down to it the depth has no bearing on the scent other than some dilution. As the scent leaves the body and travels upwards the scent cone gets larger and larger like a funnel working in reverse. Current will have a major effect on scent but still may be workable for a good dog.

I have been on an operation in a lake where we had a dog keep hitting in the same area as she passed over one spot. About 100’ down wind we found a body in 350’ that was many decades old.

We also had good results with a day old victim in 25’ so don’t count them out. They’re just like us. They have good days as well as bad days so keep the dogs in the tool box and don’t be afraid to use them.
 
I think search dogs in the aquatic environment is a hit or miss proposition. I too am skeptcal as to their value. I have had dogs hit down current from a victim and I have had them hit well upcurrent from a victim. I am guessing they may be helpful in determining if a victim is in the water but I would be interested to learn if anyone has ever done training with cadaver dogs and had the dogs "hit" with no victims in the water. I think they are a "tool in the toolbox" and if they hit I would guess there was a victim in the water and if they didn't hit I would be reluctant to deploy divers without doing more investigation.

There is no one in this community that I am aware of who has a 100% accurate dog for working in the aquatic environment. I know of good land based cadaver dogs but I think the aquatic environment is completely different and would not change my operation considerably based on "if" or "where" they hit.
 
We had worked with a dog team on one of our drownings well outside of our district (out of state in fact). The victim fell off a houseboat at the middle of a 200' long marina (drunk of course) and I wanted to concentrate our efforts along the dock starting at the houseboat and working down. We were supporting another dive team who also linked in with the dog team. The Dog Leader raised a stink because his dogs had a hit on the body about 300' below the marina and "that is where we should be putting the divers"! Since we were supporting, we sent our divers to the location. 2 days later, the body surfaced and got hung up in a boat in the marina!

Did learn an important lesson that night. We went out on the local fire department's boat. We got to the dive site and told them to put out the anchor so that we could work the diver. They had an anchor but no rope on it. I told them to radio back to shore and request a rope be sent down. The radio on the boat didn't work. We had to waste time returning to the marina to get a rope. We got back anchored and I requested them to put the boat lights on as it was getting near to dusk. The lights on the boat didn't work! We now utilize our own boats/equipment and use the locals as a our chase boats! We integrate with them but take 100% responsibility for our operation!

Dan
 
Usually I just do a lot of reading on the boards but maybe I can contribute something to this disscussion. I am a public safety diver as well as a search dog handler. My dog is not an HRD dog but I do work with other handlers on my team that do have land and water human remains detector dogs.

I agree with what Gary has said, keep the dogs in the toolbox but realize they are not the end all be all for locating victims. That being said they can be very effective and if the dogs are solid-well trained dogs they can make your life much easier.

One thing that has not yet come up in this thread is certification. The search dog world is not unlike public saftey diving. There are more than a few search dog organizations that have no credentials. They do some minor training, put their shingle out, and respond to searches. It would be like a diver finishing basic open water then responding to emergenices. I reccomend that you get to know the K9 teams in your area before an actual search call. Do some training and learn their stregnths and weaknesses.

To give you an idea how my team operates: We do not come to a search to take over operations or tell IC what to do. We are a resource and we would never raise a stink or tell anyone when or where to dive. Ideally we will take a single dog out on a boat and do a grid using the wind and current to our advantage. We use GPS and triangulation with landmarks to mark hits where the K9 indicates(we leave no buoys or markers yet so the second dog does not have visual cues). We will then take a second dog out and work them the same way (the second handler does not know if or where the first dog indicated, they stay out of sight while the first dog was out). We then use the information the dogs gave us and look at wind,current, time since the person was last seen, depth all into account and give IC an area we think the vicitm is. Alerts should be checked with a second dog or side scan sonar if possible. We also have trained handlers on shore with binoculars watching the dogs, sometimes the dogs body language can be missed by a handler in the boat right next to him (for example changes in his tail might be out of the handlers sight if they are right up by his head.)

I will also add that distractions need to be minimized. Dogs can be distracted by activity on the shore so press, bystanders and other responders should be removed from the immediate area if possible. Also I would ask that dive operations be stopped while the dogs are out as that might cause false alerts as well.

As far as the OP's question: I would not hesitate to use a dog within 24 hours of a drowning. The water temp and the dry suit would certainly add a degree of difficulty but I dont think that should rule out the possibility of an indication. And as far as giving a specific answer on how long until a dog should make a find I don't think thats possible, it is kind of like the how long until a body floats question. There are a lot of variables involved. That being said; I have been involved in successful searches with dogs as early as 8 hours after the drowning. In fact waiting too long could make things difficult as well. If you are searching a smaller or stagnant area I imagine its possible for the area to get saturated with scent and have the dog give indications in areas away from the body.

I am not the HRD guru by any means, I just hate to think that police and fire have a bad taste in their mouth because of one or two bad experiences. It is possible conditions made success impossible on that day, or its possible the team they worked with over stated thier actual skill. There are good dogs out there, try to find them now not on the day of a search.

sorry for the long post...dogs are just a passion of mine and when I get going I cant shut up sometimes.

-Adam
 
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