Scuba Pro MK20 with D-400 2nd. Is it Safe??

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DavidHickey

Contributor
Messages
196
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0
Location
Kingsman, Ohio. Near Wilmington and Waynesville
# of dives
50 - 99
Curious I just picked up a MK20 with a D-400 regulator for almost nothing. I took them to my local dive store for service. And he said the 1st stage is a great reg. BUT he said the best thing to do with the D-400 2nd stage was to run it over with my truck. Said they made them for 1 year, and quit because of all the problems. He said it would end up killing me if I used it. And he said they were a pain to work on. Any truth to what hes telling me? And the Mk20 is DIN with a converter, he wanted to charge me 80.00 to convert it to just yoke. I asked about the adapter and he said it makes the reg so long it hits you in the back of the head. ???
Thanks
David
 
DavidHickey:
Curious I just picked up a MK20 with a D-400 regulator for almost nothing. I took them to my local dive store for service. And he said the 1st stage is a great reg. BUT he said the best thing to do with the D-400 2nd stage was to run it over with my truck. Said they made them for 1 year, and quit because of all the problems. He said it would end up killing me if I used it. And he said they were a pain to work on. Any truth to what hes telling me? And the Mk20 is DIN with a converter, he wanted to charge me 80.00 to convert it to just yoke. I asked about the adapter and he said it makes the reg so long it hits you in the back of the head. ???
Thanks
David

You have a great regulator but you probably need a new LDS. Some truth: D-400s have a reputation for being a bit challenging to work on but a good tech will be able to handle it. $80.00 seems on the high side for the conversion. Lower the tank a bit in the BC and the adapter will not hit the back of your head as often.
 
I have six regs, three apeks and three scubapros. The Scubpros are two s600's and one d400. Out of all of them the d400 is my favorite. The only problem with it is that my son won't dive with anything but the d400 so if we dive together he takes it. Seriously though the d400 is a great reg, the techs I know that do them alot say they arent that hard to work on and I have never had a problem with mine. try to find a scubapro dealer who has been around awhile, they will probably have a tech who can help you.
 
DavidHickey:
Curious I just picked up a MK20 with a D-400 regulator for almost nothing. I took them to my local dive store for service. And he said the 1st stage is a great reg. BUT he said the best thing to do with the D-400 2nd stage was to run it over with my truck. Said they made them for 1 year, and quit because of all the problems. He said it would end up killing me if I used it. And he said they were a pain to work on. Any truth to what hes telling me? And the Mk20 is DIN with a converter, he wanted to charge me 80.00 to convert it to just yoke. I asked about the adapter and he said it makes the reg so long it hits you in the back of the head. ???
Thanks
David

That is BS. The only reason he may not like the D400 is because he does not know how to work on it to make it perform well. One of the best regs I have ever breathed on was a D400. I am waiting for a few of them to pop up around here so I can get one myself. Find yourself a better gear tech.
 
I already own 6 D400's myself and would always be glad to buy another if the price is reasonable. PM me before you decide to run over it with your truck.

Following any air sharing drill, I can rely on getting comments from the assigned dive buddy about how great one of my D400s breathes compared to his reg regardless of what brand or model of reg he happens to have. They are extremely easy breathing regs and achieve excellent performance without the unnatural over inflating feeling that many high perfromance second stages have.

In my experience Scubapro seems to have a problem with caving into the demands of whiney techs who don't like to work on "different" regs. The D400 is different to service but is not hard to service. Some confusion arises as some techs don't know the difference between a D300, D350 or D400 or that there are differences in terms of the levers and how they are installed. I can rely on having one a year come through the shop for annual service where I find the lever installed backwards.

The adjustment procedure is substantially different than with a more conventional single adjustment, dual adjustement or balanced second stage design but again is not hard to perform if the tech can read at a 6th grade level as the manual spells out the specific procedures and sequence.

One of the bigger mistakes is in adjusting the spring tension on the poppet where the tech does not turn the spring adjustment pad past the desired position and then back, which consequently "winds" the spring a bit, and pretty much guarentees the poppet will leak a dive or two later. The other common mistake is to take the slack out of the lever before completing the adjustment of the poppet.

The late production D400's (post 1996 or so) used a plastic orifice (due to complaints from whiney techs about corroded orifice bodies) that can make it aggravating to achieve peak performance. But it is still achieveable with some patience and a little finger pressure in the right area during assembly. The relatively soft plastic orifice (compared to one made of chrome plated brass) also created the potential for moronic techs to damage the orifice during installation or annual service which then made getting the poppet to seat perfectly nearly impossible. And the moronic tech of course was then far more likely to blame the reg than their own incompetence.

Some of the very late production D400's used a new lever design that was marketed as increasing flow rate, but in my experience it seems to do the opposite and results in slightly higher effort being required to sustain a high flow rate. I suspect this change actually addressed a CE freeflow resistance requirement.

Between the engineering hits the D400 took over time to meet CE freeflow requirements and due to the complaints of techs who were not familiar with it, SP discontinued the D400 for the 2004 season (after about 20 years of production). This is, in my opinion, one of the biggest mistakes SP ever made, especially when you consider that the X650 was not really ready for release yet, and is still essentially on indefinite backorder. The D400 was (and still is) arguably the best performing second stage Scubapro ever made.
 
The D400 is a little bit more time consuming but still easier to work on than the majority of other regs. The parts are still available from Scubapro so if they give you any flack about parts their wrong.

The unique style of the D400 is great for dealing with high current, it wont free flow if the current are ripping, a problem that frequently occurs with high performance regs. I saw that your in Ohio so if you dive rivers a lot that might be a big plus? But if most of your time is spent in lakes that might not be a great advantage.

In response to the cult following of the D400, Scubapro built the X650. It has the same basic look but the “guts” are different and nearly identical to the S600.

If I was you, I would spend your $80 and buy a DIN valve for your cylinder, and keep the converter in your save- a – dive kit.

Best of luck-

JUMBO
 
The 2005 SP catalog says the X650 is based on the D400, but in fact they have very little in common. The X650 uses what amounts to a shorter version of the S-wing poppet used in the S600, G250 etc and shares the same basic poppet design while the D400 used a center balanced valve design. This design allowed the use of a relatively large orifice with high flow rates and stable operation but with very light spring force requirements that contributed to excellent seat life.

The X650 uses a conventional exhaust valve design while the D400 used a coaxial exhaust valve mounted in the center of the diaphragm. This coaxial design, combined with the angle of the diaphragm/exhaust valve in the case, provided significant advantages in terms of the case geometry fault. The only thing special about the diaphragm in the X650 is the angle.

In short the X650 looks kinda like a D400, and has one of the D400's advantages of case design, but is not anything like a D400 in terms of valve design of function.

I'd love to say the X650 breathes as well as the D400, or at least be able to give a good comparison, but my X650 is still on back order. Maybe next season.
 
I’ve played around with the X 650 for a while now, and the breathing characteristics are very similar to all SP’s high end regs. You can tune the D400, S600, and the X650, so the cracking pressure is lower than 1.0 on the magnahelic.

In practical application you will never notice a difference between 1.25 and .9, so basically all three regs are truly high end.

On a personal note I’m staying with the S600, but that’s just my opinion-

JUMBO
 
The problem with tuning the S600 to less than 1.0 to 1.2 or so on the bench is that it will freeflow slightly in some positions in the water unless you detune it a bit. This is due to the case geometry and the postition of the exhaust valve in relation to the diaphragm. The S-wing poppet is capable of much better performance, but the case prevents it's efficent and stable use at low cracking efforts.

That was the beauty of the D400 - the coaxial diaphragm/exhaust valve and angle of the diaphragm reduced the CGF issues and allowed cracking efforts as low as .5 or .6 with no need to increase the cracking effort in some swimming positions to prevent a slight freeflow. So it not only had a high performance poppet assembly, but also had a case design that allowed you to use all of the poppet's potential performance.
 
DA Aquamaster:
The problem with tuning the S600 to less than 1.0 to 1.2 or so on the bench is that it will freeflow slightly in some positions in the water unless you detune it a bit.

DA

Is there a problem if the SP adjustable is tuned to FF in the full open position? I believe the Oceanic adjustable 2nd tuning spec call for setting the orifice with the adjustment knob at the 1/2 way position. I have set my BA up that way just to see how easy I could make it breath. Turned out to be something my "sensetive" lungs didn't care much about. But I'm thinking that managing slight FF with the adjustment knob should be part of "normal" operator procedures with a user adjustable (cracking pressure) 2nd rather than an indicator of service requirement.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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