Reverse Kick

[g1138]

Hey BlueSparkle, don't worry about hijacking the OP's thread in this case. I believe we've answered the original question several times. A little more in depth explanation won't hurt.

I did misunderstand you a bit on fin orientation. On the power stroke the back kick is opposite of the frog kick.
On the back kick you still have your fins parallel to the surface on the power stroke more or less. You never try to orientate perpendicular like on the frog kick. Imagining the feel of your stroke, the scoop is very subtle and is done with the tips of your fins.

1) From your loading phase, imagine you trying to spread butter on two pieces of toast; This is the beginning of your power stroke (using the side walls to provide propulsion).
2) Before you reach the breaking point and doing the splits, bend your knees to raise your feet closer to your head. This adds a little lift on the tips of your fins. This is your scoop; you do it withOUT changing the orientation of your feet; move only your knees. Imagine yourself trying to lightly lift a Ping-Pong ball over your head (this is the first part of the circular motion some of use are trying to describe).

Your knees are moving your feet towards your head which gives you the forward and up movement of water from your fins. So there's no need to pivot your feet to direct water up during your scoop. (I say "up" in relation from the diver back to the surface. NOT from feet to head.)
As your feet return back to the GUE hover position you've now complete your first full back kick stroke. You're reset so to speak, now go back into the loading phase. This is the circular motion some divers relate to.

- Load by extending your legs
- Split
- Raise knees
- Reset

The whole time your feet are locked fluidly at your ankles. On your Reset they should be parallel with the surface.
You'll notice how most descriptions talk about feet being parallel with the surface but during the actual stroke description there's no reference to them. That's because during the stroke if you keep your feet locked they just naturally orientate and do what ever they need to do. So just focus on getting your feet near parallel with the surface in your hover phase and then lock them in place and forget about them during the back kick.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Hey BlueSparkle, don't worry about hijacking the OP's thread in this case. I believe we've answered the original question several times. A little more in depth explanation won't hurt.

Thanks

I did misunderstand you a bit on fin orientation. On the power stroke the back kick is opposite of the frog kick.
On the back kick you still have your fins parallel to the surface on the power stroke more or less. You never try to orientate perpendicular like on the frog kick. Imagining the feel of your stroke, the scoop is very subtle and is done with the tips of your fins.

Okay, thank you! This has been bugging me and it's so hard to explain! (I should have posted the two photos earlier.) I can now reconcile the description with the action... ahhhh.

The one last thing I'm not sure I can still visualize is this part:

2) Before you reach the breaking point and doing the splits, bend your knees to raise your feet closer to your head. This adds a little lift on the tips of your fins. This is your scoop; you do it withOUT changing the orientation of your feet; move only your knees. Imagine yourself trying to lightly lift a Ping-Pong ball over your head (this is the first part of the circular motion some of use are trying to describe).

I DO now get that the fin orientation is "opposite" to that during the power phase of the frog kick (so parallel to the bottom/surface). I'm not sure I can visualize "bend knees to raise feet closer to your head." That might be because it's always tricky to describe things in terms of a horizontal position in the water (like, not speaking of this specific example but: is "up" toward the surface or toward ones' head... that sort of thing).

I do understand now that there is no need, nor desire, to try to have one's blades perpendicular to the surface, like they are in the frog kick, so that's major progress for my mental image

So, that last little bit... the "ping pong ball lift" part.... Okay, I've extended my legs back to "load" them, then I've brought them forward in the power stroke (and my shins are perpendicular to the bottom/surface now).... and now is where I'm getting a bit lost I think (and, this is also where I have trouble in real life.... because I have a hard time getting from the end of my first power stroke around and through the loading part of the second stroke).

I feel like I'm getting so close to understanding it now though, that I want to press on until I mentally "get" it. Then I can try to actually do it in the water (but for some reason I have to have a mental picture/understanding first; that's just how I learn things).

Thanks again for all your help.
Blue Sparkle

 

[pixelpixie]

Some great suggestions! I can't wait to get to the pool to try again!

 

[g1138]

BlueSparkle,
I have a feeling you have the gist down. You've already split and brought your legs up. That's taken care of the "ping pong ball lift" already.
If you can perform a back kick and move backwards then you have the basic stroke down. It's just transitioning to a second stroke that seems to be your problem. Is that correct?

Try to review the videos again. Pause between each power stroke. Take an actual slow 1 second pause and stay in your GUE hover position after your first power stroke. Then try another back kick. Pause and Repeat until you can consistently stop "shrimping" back and forth.
You're looking for consistency in your technique, therefore try to focus on just the one stroke instead of putting it all together for the whole backwards race.

When you can reliably move backwards between each back kick then you can try back kicking w/o the pauses to try and gain momentum. I don't know if my technique is sloppy but I always have a small pause where I'm resetting and not going anywhere. I have improved to the point where my pause is much shorter than before but it's still there.

Treat it like you're playing music. Play it as slow as you need to to make it consistent, then bring the speed back up till it's where you want it to be.
But keep in mind that fast short finning is never more effective as slow long fin strokes.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

BlueSparkle,
I have a feeling you have the gist down. You've already split and brought your legs up. That's taken care of the "ping pong ball lift" already.

Okay, I see.

If you can perform a back kick and move backwards then you have the basic stroke down. It's just transitioning to a second stroke that seems to be your problem. Is that correct?

It's a bit of a combination of having a problem transitioning to the second power stroke (I get to feeling "wobbly" and like my legs are "stuck" in the retracted, "end of first power stroke" position) and/or, if I do manage to keep on with kicks two, three, or more, then I start rising up, feet first (not that I'm going up to the surface, but I will end up in a position with my head down and my feet up, like if I were standing on my head).

The latter may be because of a head-heavy tendency that I am able to mask most of the time. I'm going to experiment with correcting that.

I also see that I tend to drop my knees on the power stroke, especially after the first one. I'm not sure if that's an unconscious effort to stop the gradual "standing on head" or something else.

Try to review the videos again. Pause between each power stroke. Take an actual slow 1 second pause and stay in your GUE hover position after your first power stroke. Then try another back kick. Pause and Repeat

I will try that, thanks. Now I just need to find an opportunity to go diving or pool diving with someone! I was just the lucky recipient of a friend's hand-me-down camera with housing, so now I will be able to take some new video to analyze things.

Thanks again,
Blue Sparkle

 

[g1138]

You may be bending your knees too much.
As in during the leg lift part of the power stroke your feet are coming too close to your head.
Good luck!

 

[Blue Sparkle]

You may be bending your knees too much.
As in during the leg lift part of the power stroke your feet are coming too close to your head.
Good luck!

You know, I couldn't figure out exactly what you meant by this at first (thinking in my head as I'm not diving today). But then I found a short video clip of me (trying to)making two back kicks in a row, and I took five sequential still shots from it. And you know what? I think I am making the exact mistake you described.

Of course that is probably just one of many problems with it, but it does look like I continue the power stroke for too long and get "crunched up." Maybe that is why I feel like I get "stuck" at that point and cannot load the next stroke? (I did manage to make a second stroke in this case, but oftentimes it just "ends" at that "crunched up" part and I feel "stuck" there and then start getting out of trim and have to abandon the back kick and just go back to diving.

I'm partially obscured here (don't mind me, I'm in the process of going face first into something and trying to back kick away from it instead of pushing off), but here is a series of five still shots I took from two attempted back kicks in a row. I think in the third shot, which is right at the end of the first kick and before the second one, I'm doing exactly what you said and bringing my feet (WAY) too close to my head. Now why I'm doing that...? I don't know! I'll have to try consciously arresting the power stroke sooner and starting into the next loading phase. Thanks, you have given me something to think about and to try

 

[aquaregia]

Hold your arms further forward, tilt your chin up if necessary.

 

[Doc Harry]

I agree with TS&M, I scoop the water with tops of my fins. Using the sides of your fins for the power stroke is very inefficient, IMO. You can scoop with the tops of your fins and still have great anti-silting technique. You can even do itty-bitty backward kicks from a modified frog position, just using ankle and foot movements only.

Agree , chin up on the power stroke.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Oh sure, just when I thought I had determined that the blades were only supposed to be parallel to the bottom :splat: