Rescue divers' equipment freezes during body retrieval

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mike_s

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This was in the news today...



http://www.keloland.com/News/NewsDetail6371.cfm?Id=0,54357

Divers' Equipment Freezes


Divers knew last night they needed to retrieve a body from the icy waters, because Hofer had been submerged for at least two hours by the time they got there.

Unfortunately, even though they're trained for cold-water dives, there was no way divers could get to Hofer until today.

When last night's water rescue call came in, members of the Minnehaha County Dive team attempted to go into the pond.

Minnehaha County Dive Team Chief Diver, Bill Donovan, says, "This equipment will work fine in cold water environments, but it's that transition from the surface into the water that usually causes the problems."

The regulators carrying oxygen to the divers' masks froze.

Donovan says, "That's one of the things we battle any time you go out to do any type of an ice dive."

Donovan says, "Usually at that point the regulator starts free flowing.”

Two divers were only able to get two feet deep before that happened, and they had to give up their attempts to get to Hofer. Jay Marshall was the first one in the water.

Marshall says, "We really wanted to get the gentleman out last night and alleviate the family, but unfortunately we were unable to do so.”

Donovan says, "We didn't have any heating shelters set up on ice, and wind working equipment, the weather won last night and dive team lost.”

Today the dive team was able to set up a heated tent over a new hole, 20 feet from the original place where Hofer's tractor went in. That made all the difference.

Marshall says, "I was told about the distance to where tractor was, I entered the water and proceeded to the tractor, when I observed the situation, I called for another diver to complete extraction.”

Within minutes the two divers were able to pull Hofer's body out.

The divers’ suits and masks are designed, so it keeps them completely dry. That's important in this case because diesel fuel was in the water from the tractor.
 
Cheekymonkey:
"The regulators carrying oxygen to the divers' mask froze"

that pisses me off every time


I agree with you. THe idiots at our local paper did a story about car tire inflation and how people are putting Nitrogen in their tires now instead of using Oxygen in your car tires. Idiots...


Feel free to send a message to the author of the story correcting her.

akennecke@keloland.com is her email at the bottom of the story.
 
Well...in all fairness you wouldn't want it carrying carbon dioxide? Yes, more accurate would be air, but laymen think air is Oxygen anyway...
 
The local papers all seem to think firefighters fill their SCBA with O2 also. That would go over real well in a structure fire!
 
I’m not putting a lot of weight on the accuracy of the article. But if they normally freeze up what kind of gear is being used, how is it tuned and how are they using it?

We rarely freeze up and when we do it is user error 99+% of the time.

I did notice in the video that they didn't appear to have an ambient air valve on the mask. Breathing through the reg prior to submerging it can and a lot of cases will cause it to free flow. Having that valve helps eliminate that and it can be closed just as the diver submerges.

Gary D.
 
Consider the location of the article (Sioux Falls, SD) in relation to the weather in the Midwest for the last 3-4 weeks...

The air temp was probably between negative ten and zero degrees with windchill. I'd be surprised if your equipment ever got that cold. The weather that day was likely between negative ten and zero degrees during the daytime and brutal cold at night. Anything wet is frozen in seconds.

They probably went to the lake as a gesture to the victims' family more than a determined effort to be successful.
 
ehuber:
Consider the location of the article (Sioux Falls, SD) in relation to the weather in the Midwest for the last 3-4 weeks...

The air temp was probably between negative ten and zero degrees with windchill. I'd be surprised if your equipment ever got that cold. The weather that day was likely between negative ten and zero degrees during the daytime and brutal cold at night. Anything wet is frozen in seconds.

They probably went to the lake as a gesture to the victims' family more than a determined effort to be successful.

I did consider the location and our gear and conditions have been that bad. But take wind chill out of the equation as it has no affect on the equipment.

In an AGA, without an ambient pressure valve the diver needs to start breathing as soon as the mask goes on. That is a big no no under freezing conditions. With the valve that first breath doesn’t need to be taken until the divers face is under water.

The majority of reg freezing issues are caused by us and not the equipment itself. Issues like proper gear, using it properly and having it tuned properly.

Even an AGA, if not properly equipped, tuned and used right can freeze under much nicer above freezing conditions. :wink:

Gary D.
 
Gary,

You bring up and interesting point regarding the AGA mask and cold weather. I have been using my AGA year round here in CT for over 4 years. I have to put it on prior to submerging unlike the other guys on regular regs who can put them in the water and keep them in the water. In 4 winter seasons I have yet to have my AGA freeze up. I have had my pony reg freeze up but never my AGA. In fact during drill scenarios I have surfaced after doing my dive and been the safety diver for the last guy diving and have yet to have a problem with the reg freezing up.

People ask why, divers who know regs know fully well that there are other second stages out there whose performace is much better than the second stage on the AGA. I believe it is becuase the mask acts as a huge heat sink. The increase surface area along with the air in the mask itself all helps to keep the temperature high enough to prevent moisture from my breathing from freezing. It is just my opinion but like I said I have yet to have a problem with this setup.

Mark
 
ehuber:
Consider the location of the article (Sioux Falls, SD) in relation to the weather in the Midwest for the last 3-4 weeks...

The air temp was probably between negative ten and zero degrees with windchill. I'd be surprised if your equipment ever got that cold. The weather that day was likely between negative ten and zero degrees during the daytime and brutal cold at night. Anything wet is frozen in seconds.

They probably went to the lake as a gesture to the victims' family more than a determined effort to be successful.

Boy you've got to be careful before making some wild conjecture about what Gary has or has not seen. Few people on this board are as qualified to comment on this stuff as he is.



dittrimd:
Gary,

You bring up and interesting point regarding the AGA mask and cold weather. I have been using my AGA year round here in CT for over 4 years. I have to put it on prior to submerging unlike the other guys on regular regs who can put them in the water and keep them in the water. In 4 winter seasons I have yet to have my AGA freeze up. I have had my pony reg freeze up but never my AGA. In fact during drill scenarios I have surfaced after doing my dive and been the safety diver for the last guy diving and have yet to have a problem with the reg freezing up.

People ask why, divers who know regs know fully well that there are other second stages out there whose performace is much better than the second stage on the AGA. I believe it is becuase the mask acts as a huge heat sink. The increase surface area along with the air in the mask itself all helps to keep the temperature high enough to prevent moisture from my breathing from freezing. It is just my opinion but like I said I have yet to have a problem with this setup.

Mark

This idea is absurd. First of all, a heat sink is something that is designed to DISSIPATE heat, not retain it as I believe you are trying to suggest. And second, the fact that you have not personally experienced a free flow with your AGA does nothing to discredit Gary's explanation as to when and why an AGA is susceptible it.

I have witnessed AGA free flows on several occasions, and they have always been precipitated by the exact conditions which Gary describes. I live in northern Minnesota, and every January we have a multi-county, multi-agency training on Cass Lake. This year the temp was around -25 F with windchill, and around -10 F ambient. One of our divers (out of four that went that day) had a free flow moments after getting in the water, and it did not take a wizard to see it coming. In his case, there was a delay by Search and Rescue with their rigging, causing him to spend several minutes out of water breathing through his AGA with no gill. FYI: we have seven team AGAs, some with wireless comms, and some hard-wired. We use only the hard-wired for ice diving so the comm line doubles as the safety line, and only one of our hard-wired masks has a gill. Anyway, if you want to see an AGA free flow just go someplace colder.
 

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