Regulator Service -- Questions

[t-mac]

My wife and both have Apeks Flight regs. We've been very happy with them, even though a number of people complain they free-flow too easily. That is not our experience.

Anyway, we both just had them serviced at a LDS and I was at the pool just afterwards doing my DM skill circuit (being graded). Well, much to my surprise when I was asked to demonstrate breathing off a free-flowing regulator, my regulator would not free flow! It would just kind of lightly bubble and when I inhaled it stopped and I was inhaling a lot of water. I signaled my instructor that the reg had an issue and I switched to my octo. Same thing. My instructor came around and tried it with the same result. It breathes fine; it just won't freeflow with the purge. My wife has the same set that was serviced at the same time in the same shop and it is fine. My conclusion? Something is out of tune with my reg as a result of the service. Sounds reasonable, right?

So, I take it back to the shop and they tell me it is probably the lever height, but that they will fix it. I come back to pick it up later and they tell me that they had to tune it out of specification to get it to "do what I want it to do." Okay, I'd really rather have my life support be in specification, but, hey, you're the experts right? It seemed to breathe fine.

A couple of things.

First, yes, I know it seems crazy to want your reg to free-flow and that's not really the point. The purge is there for a reason and it should work properly. What if I need to clear my reg and I can't blast it? What if I need to deploy a DSMB or use a lift bag? Am I silly to want my reg to be able to do this?

Second, if my reg is now out of spec so it has the ability to freeflow, does that mean that it came out of spec from the factory and every other time it was serviced (it's always been fine before)? Does that mean my wife's reg is out of spec since it freeflows?

I guess I walked away thinking that they didn't do it right in the first place and to cover up that fact they had to blame it on me for wanting my reg to free flow like I'm some kind of moron. It really wasn't a big deal. I just wanted it right and I would have been fine if they just said, "yeah, we didn't get it right the first time or we forgot something, but it's good now." I feel my trust has been betrayed. I am being unfair? Is there a reasonable explanation for this that I'm not seeing?

 

[JohnN]

Excuse my ignorance, but with a cracking pressure at about 0.8 " H20, turning the regulator with the mouthpiece pointing up should start it to free-flow.

Was this not the case, and what did your LDS rebuilder tell you the cracking pressure was set to?

 

[Fishpie]

If the Flight is like every other barrel poppet 2nd stage I've seen the only way to alter the lever height is to screw the oriface in or out.
I'd suspect your service tech simply did a parts swap (hopefully) and left the adjustment as it was.
Not what a proper service should be.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I'm not familiar with the Flight, but there are a few things to consider.

Second stages are generally designed with some Venturi effect to them so that the gas exiting the mouthpiece reduces the pressure in the case, keeps the diaphragm sucked inward and sustains the flow. Placing your thumb over the mouthpiece interrupts the effect and stops the flow.

Some second stages have a Venturi adjustment or freeflow vane that prevents sustained freeflows from happening. This is often the case on a second stage used for an octo to avoid unintentional freeflows. However, even when this is the case, you can sustain the flow by keeping the purge depressed to fill a lift bag, etc.

In many second stages if the inhalation/cracking effort is set too high, the reg will not freeflow - that is again often the case on an octo where it may be detuned to avoid unintended gas loss (but then breathes like a rock), but again a freeflow can be induced and maintained by pressing the purge.

The critical issue is that the lever height be high enough to allow the valve to fully open and provide full flow - regardless of cracking effort. On a dual adjustment second stage a high cracking effort can be done with the correct lever height as the orifice adjustment is separate from the lever height adjustment. On a single adjustment regulator however, excessive cracking effort will result in inadequate lever height, unless a spring is substituted, and that will limit the working range and maximum flow of the regulator- a very bad thing in an emergency or at depth.

The important thing is that you be able to purge the reg and initiate full airflow by depressing the purge button and you should be able to get the full blast of air by fully depressing the purge. You should also not have to depress the purge more than about an 1/8" inch to initiate flow. If you can't get full flow, or need to depress it more than about 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch to initiate flow, then in has a problem and/or the tech has screwed something up and you need to get it fixed.

 

[idive2]

I have a conshelf XI and when I set the lever flush with the housing as the manual indicates
the lever was no where near close enough to the diaphragm to get a good purge. I think intermediate
pressure from the first stage can sometimes affect the height the lever ends up at when setting
the second stage close to a free flow. I am not a trained technician but these have been my experiences
with an older second stage of mine. Also I would think an incorrect lever might cause this as well ?

 

[Colliam7]

DA provided a very comprehensive summary, and I encourage you to give thoughtful consideration to his post. My comments are more to the issue of the shop behavior.

So, I take it back to the shop and they tell me it is probably the lever height, but that they will fix it. I come back to pick it up later and they tell me that they had to tune it out of specification to get it to "do what I want it to do."

Good for them on the first comment (lever height problem, they will fix it). The second comment sounds just a little like BS.

The purge is there for a reason and it should work properly. What if I need to clear my reg and I can't blast it? What if I need to deploy a DSMB or use a lift bag? Am I silly to want my reg to be able to do this?

Not at all. You are correct.

Second, if my reg is now out of spec so it has the ability to freeflow, does that mean that it came out of spec from the factory and every other time it was serviced (it's always been fine before)? Does that mean my wife's reg is out of spec since it freeflows?

No. See previous comment about BS.

I guess I walked away thinking that they didn't do it right in the first place and to cover up that fact they had to blame it on me for wanting my reg to free flow like I'm some kind of moron.

Possibly.

I just wanted it right and I would have been fine if they just said, "yeah, we didn't get it right the first time or we forgot something, but it's good now." I feel my trust has been betrayed. I am being unfair? Is there a reasonable explanation for this that I'm not seeing?

Probably not a 'reasonable' explanantion, oither than your interpretation about trying to assign blame. Maybe, they were concerned you would demand a refund for the previous service. Who knows? I wouldn't worry about the trust issue too much. This is probably a one time event. See how they perform in the future.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

I wouldn't worry about the trust issue too much. This is probably a one time event. See how they perform in the future.

If it were me I would worry, if he is BSing you now what will he pull later? People are all to eager to let a reg tech off the hook when they screw up and I just don't see why they should not be held accountable. The manufacturers and most of the dive pros will give you the same old spiel about how you need special training and tools, have a full knowledge of black magic, a blessing from God and various other things to work on regs or the user of the reg will die a horrible death. They go even further as to restrict the sale of parts so only these special people can obtain them, and all this they say is for our own good. The manufacturers that play this game think we are just dumb enough to believe this crap that they have been feeding us. With all this crap they feed us you would believe the shops that do service would have gone through some kind of government certification program and treat our "life support" in a manner that follows what they have been preaching. One would think the manufacturers would come up with a system like the FAA has been using for years, you would have a maintenance schedule and you would need someone to sign off on your work so it is done properly the first time. I say if they want to play the game they have been playing they need to play it to it's fullest potential or be accountable for when they screw up.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

It's a broader issue - but worst case, a "tech" can attend a 1 or 2 day seminar regarding current regs a company sells, that may or may not have extensive hands on training, and then be certified to work on all the regs a company makes. That tech may or may not know one end of a torque wrench from the other.

Ideally, a tech works at the shop first, learns the basic skills under the mentorship of a tech - on top of having good mechanical aptitude to start with - then returns to the shop to mentor under a more experienced tech. That's how it's supposed to work, but it's not that common anymore.

And the reality is that the volume of service work in most shops is pretty low and most techs won't work on 200 or more regs per year, in total and may see only 1 or 2 regs per year of some of the odder, less common or older makes and models, so they may not be all that familiar with how to service a given regulator.

 

[t-mac]

The important thing is that you be able to purge the reg and initiate full airflow by depressing the purge button and you should be able to get the full blast of air by fully depressing the purge. You should also not have to depress the purge more than about an 1/8" inch to initiate flow. If you can't get full flow, or need to depress it more than about 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch to initiate flow, then in has a problem and/or the tech has screwed something up and you need to get it fixed.

Even with the purge pushed all the way in I couldn't get enough to breath it unless my mouth was sealed around the mouthpiece.

Thanks to everyone for the comments. I am fortunate to have several shops nearby and I try to patronize all of them. Maybe I should reconsider that. This one has a couple of folks who just exude attitude and the guy at the counter is that way so maybe I'm even more irked because of the history. (This attitude with a number of folks is why I don't do more with this shop, but they are the dealer for my reg.) Anyway, I'm sure the tech is fine. He made it right and they didn't charge me -- but the BS excuse really put me off and then acting like I'm a moron for actually wanting my reg to work properly was pretty well over the line in my opinion.

 

[LMichWreckDiver]

Your reg. 2nd stage was not serviced properly or at all. When you shake the 2nd stage. You should not here a rattle. The level should kiss the diaphram so slightly. Also your reg. set was not even bench tested. A test would have shown that something is wrong. Any novice repair tech. would know that. You got ripped. I tear apart the entire set down to every little piece. And then have to get the settings all back to specs. Which is easy when you do it all the time. That reg. should have never left the shop if it was bench tested. Just shaking the 2nd stage would tell me that the level isn't touching the diaphram. I also don't think the shop took apart the orifice from the housing either. So they wouldn't have to adjust the settings to specs. Good Luck.