recert?

[ericfine50]

Just read the article in Dive Training about instruction and some in the article said the idea of a a non-life time cert was dead. Something like 3 years and renew? or x # of dives a year? Any ideas?

eric

 

[chiara]

Despite being part of PADI and approving what they did in regard to Diverlink, I strongly support some kind of updating, just as we do for Medic First Aid, at any level.

Is the article you are talking about in the December issue of Dive Training?

 

[ericfine50]

Yes - It is the most recent one. I know that GUE has a # of dives per year needed to keep the card active. I think it is 20 or 25. Not sure. I used to work in a dive store and several times someone would walk into the store with a cert that was 10 -15 years old. Had not dove in 10 years and wanted to buy gear and didn't want to take a refresher class.

Eric

 

[MikeFerrara]

I am all for keeping skills current and choosing dives according to ones skill level. The correct choosing of dives is the point though. Should a card really lapse? I have OW cards of variouse levels, I have cave cards, trimix and other technical cards and instructor cards from multiple agencies. If I take a year off diving which card will lapse? Will they take my OW card untill I take a refresher with an instructor with a tenth my experience to review reg recovery? Or...maybe I'm smart enough to do some OW dives before a cave dive after a period of inactivity and then start with easy cave dives to work my way back up again. How long can I lay off diving and still be far more proficient than the average OW diver or for that matter the average instructor? This may be an extreme example but you get the idea. What is an adequate measure? I see divers who dive often and even teach who can't dive well.

IMO, we need to teach good diving from the start (and I don't believe that as an industry we do) and we need to teach good judgement and I don't think we do. I teach new divers to stay shallow and out of overheads and on their very first trip some idiot DM is leading them through wrecks at 100 ft and bringing them back to the boat with 200 psi in their tank. No...I think good skills and judgment from the start is the answer.

Keep in mind that in most places there is no law requiring one to be certified to dive. We selfe regulate and choose not to sell air to uncertified divers.

IMO, we need to do what we already do better. We need to follow the rules we already have. Inventing new rules will not make up for breaking the ones we have. They do the same with law. Instead of enforcing the ones we already have they make new ones to break. IMO it defies logic and worse it defies common sense.

 

[ericfine50]

Mike,
I agree with you that you need to start at the beginning and teach better. If you follow that logic, then stores need to charge what the real "value" of the course is and not use the course as a way for people to buy gear. I have seen some divers on their OW check outs that were scared just enough to know that this was going to be their last dive ever. And that is the fault of the instructor. You don't see this type of attitude in fly instruction or equistrian sports.

Eric

 

[chickdiver]

Mike and Eric :

I fully agree with what both of you have to say. Heck, I'll take it a step further and say that whoever coined the phrase "certification course" did all of us (divers, potential divers, and instructors) a disservice. The correct terminology should be "training course". I have had students who failed my course argue "but I paid for the certification". Didn't fly, although I do allow them to remediate as long as necessary at no charge. I also (strongly) feel that as an industry we should have periodic mandatory instructor "workshops" for lack of a better term, to cover changes in Standards, etc. I also think that instructors should have to requalify on the swim test or other "physical fitness test" periodically. Nothing chaps my *** more than some 400lb instructor smoking cigs in a drysuit while pontificating to wide eyed, awstruck OW students about his feats.

Whew, felt good to get all that off my chest!

Kisses,
Chickdiver (who is feeling more arguementative than ususal today )

 

[ericfine50]

When it comes to Technical training (I hate calling it Tec) - I like what some of the cold cavers used to do. You had to search out the instructor - the training may of taken longer, but you did not have divers getting cards just to get cards.
Eric

 

[DiverBuoy]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Should a card really lapse?

Well you could do it like membership - getting that annual sticker on your card.

Although I've never been on a boat in California that ignores cert cards, I've heard plenty of posts here about how many resorts and boats around the world don't care. So for those boats that just want to see a card - pull it out - who cares when you got it. But for special rank and priviledge devise a system that requires testing or recert.

The "sticker" would get you special benefits, membership, etc and could come from having a review of your skills done through some mechanism. For example a phone interview with a course director or IDC staff instructor - where they give you random questions and you have to answer them. Or some type of on-line testing with a timer so you can't spend days looking up the answers, then submit the test.

Really though it's a logistical nightmare having some sort of PADI appointed auditor who calls with a weeks notice. They would shadow you on a class, or if none were scheduled, supervise a test or verbal exam. Or regional offices could be setup to hosts review weekends, where instructors flock to get pointers and tips and take a test and then get a sticker or piece of "authentic paper" indicating attendance. Then there's the issue of requiring attendance, and the frequency and availability of LOCAL opportunities. Perhaps the Internet using netmeeting, or MSN Messenger video, or AOL IM with some sort of unique identity authentication mechanism (not yet developed). Using this tool you could conference and participate in to a regional, take on-line tests even submit questions and have interactive sessions. But this would require PC ownership and not everyone in the world even has that. But let's face it every instructor got to an IDC and an IE at some point, so if it was absolutely required they could do it again. But it all comes down to money.

What am I saying none of this would ever work ... it's all about money how would you fund it. Instructors already pay out a fortune each year in liability insurance, personal insurance, gear replacement, membership dues, then add recertification fees - they'd hop right over to an organization that doesn't require it. Only the universal standards board could inact a change of his magnitude and it would be slow to adopt.

I've re-thought my position no re-certification.

 

[Epinephelus]

There are those who want to control others and those who don't. Personally I prefer to take responsibility for myself, let you take responsibility for yourself and have all you who'd wish to dictate any frequency or refresher requirements just apply them to yourselves and leave me alone.
If it makes you sleep any better, I'm a regular safety nut - I dive frequently, I do lots of pool work just to practice stuff, and I read everything I can get my hands on "scuba." I won't lose any sleep if someone else doesn't.
Freedom's like that.
E. itajara

 

[chickdiver]

Epi-

While I agree with you that the average OW diver doesn't necessarily need to have a periodic update, unless, of course, they take a significant period of time off from diving, I do think that diving professionals need to be updated periodically. As for "tech" divers, I am still undecided, however, most of the people I know who fall into that category are the most active divers and best informed anyway.