RAW vs. JPEG: The Cost Factor

[Randallr]

I posted this on the Sealife forum, but realized I might get more traffic (and considered opinions) here. Here's the guidance I need: I went to Saba a few months ago, rented a DC1200, and loved it - its ease of use and the photos that resulted. I'm thinking of buying a DC1400 setup. As best I can tell, the most significant rap against it is it doesn't have RAW capabilities. But as I look at other camera setups, the cost differential seems huge. I can get a Sealife DC1400 setup with strobe, housing, etc. at B&H for about $800. A Canon GS12 setup at Backscatter is nearly twice as much.

So my question is: Is there a camera and housing with RAW capabilities that's as good as the DC1400 at a similar price point? Or does RAW simply cost more? What do you think is the best RAW-capable camera-housing-strobe setup at a price comparable to the DC1400?

Thank you folks for your guidance!

 

[flareside]

If you are only wanting new equipment, as far as Canon P&S cameras go, you are pretty much limited to the G12 and the S100 and potentially an S95 which may be languishing on a shelf somewhere. If you can accept used equipment, there are plenty of good condition/refurbished S90s and S95s out there at reasonable prices.

As another option, you can convert virtually any Canon P&S using CHDK into a camera that takes RAW photos. It is not the same version of RAW you would get from and S90, S95, S100, or the G series but the files are fairly similar and is recognized by most of the major photo editors. CHDK Wiki


EDIT:
The DC1400 package you noted is essentially a $500 camera packaged with a $350 strobe for $800. An S95 can be had from Adorama for $329 (at the time of this posting) and then adding a WP-DC38 housing from B&H would add another $210 for a total of $540. So adding the $350 sealife strobe to that says you can have RAW capability for $890 vs. the original $800. While that is not the strobe most people would pick, it was put back for apples to apples.

References:
S95: 4343B001 Canon PowerShot S95 10 Megapixels Digital Camera with 3.8x Optical Zoom, 4x Digital Zoom, 3in TFT Color Display
WP-DC38: Canon WP-DC38 Case for Canon PowerShot S95 4712B001 B&H Photo
Suggested alternate strobe package: Sea & Sea YS-01 LIGHTING PKG w/TRAY/FLEX ARM SS-70041 B&H Photo

 

[Gilligan]

In addition to what flareside stated;

I shot with "manual white balance" for several years with my Olympus C4000Z. It required me to carry a white card or slate to calibrate off each time the conditions changed such as depth and/or ambient light. The rest of my adjustments were done in Photoshop post processing. Manual aka Custom White Balance is a step above using the "Underwater" setting but a big step below RAW. So if you get the DC1200 setup you have to use the Custom White Balance to get the best results on non-strobe shots.

I now use a Canon G12 with RAW and shoot all my non-strobe shots in RAW. I shoot my strobe shots in RAW or JPEG depending on my mood . I am pretty satisfied with the results in the JPEG mode for the strobe shots. You can do a lot of adjusting in Photoshop but not on the white balance of non-strobe shots.

It boils down to what results you are satisfied with, how much time you are willing to spend in post-processing and how much $ you want to spend.

 

[Tigerman]

My take on raw vs jpeg, especially under water is..

SCREW COST, SHOOT RAW!

 

[Sortsol]

RAW is WAY worth it. RAW enables you to capture all the trons and adjust them as needed in post processing. Idealy, that's not much, but I have made some bad images into decent one and some good images into great ones because I had the original RAW photo. Can't do as much with a jpeg because the trons just aren't there to adjust.

 

[Randallr]

Thanks for all this, folks - enormously helpful! Flareside, can I ask you why you recommended the Sea & Sea YS-01 strobe? Is there an appreciable difference from the Ikelite AF35 strobe that both Adorama and B&H semi-package with Canon? It's about $100 cheaper.

Also, while we're at it, is there a major difference between the Canon housing and the (more expensive) Ikelite housing that both Adorama and B&H sell.

Finally, a more subjective question. I get why RAW is preferable to JPEG. But as a photo-newbie who dives maybe 3x a year (maybe 4x if I get lucky) I was attracted to the ease-of-use of the Sealife DC1400. While I enjoyed hacking around with Photoshop when I edited my Saba photos, practically speaking I won't spend a lot of time fixing and editing. So my question is, does it take an engineering degree to really exploit the differences between the RAW-based Canon S95 setup and the JPEG-only Sealife DC1400 setup? That's more important to me than the $200-$300 price difference. I want to be able to start shooting quickly and learn to get reasonable shots that improve over time.

Hey, for argument's sake, here are some of the better shots from my September Saba trip. These were shot with the Sealife DC1200 and Sealife strobe, and edited on Photoshop Elements 9 as best I could (my first time with that, too). Critiques are welcome and my skin is thick! Thanks again to you all.

 

[flareside]

Flareside, can I ask you why you recommended the Sea & Sea YS-01 strobe?

After you've spent a little time on these boards, you will understand how dangerous a question like this is. While I could rattle off comments like reliability, power, good reputation, resale value, yada, yada, yada... (all of which do actually favor the YS-01) the reality is that when it comes to strobes it all comes down to personal opinion, likes and dislikes. And since you asked, I will answer (but for those who don't agree with my opinion, please have the decency to debate it rather than attacking it.)

Based on your situation, there are two specific strobes that I would recommend. The YS-01 is one of them and the Inon S2000 is the other. These two strobes represent the bottom end of what I (opinion) consider "real" strobes. These are the strobes that you will never regret buying. These are the strobes you never hear any complaints about. These are the kind of strobes you will keep as your system grows, either buying a twin for the other side or moving it over to the fill position if you get something stronger. Anything less (again, this is only an opinion) is a toy that you will ultimately wind up discarding and replacing due to it being underpowered or unreliable. You asked specifically about the AF35. It has a guide number of 9 where as the YS-01 has a guide number of 20 so you would need 2 of the AF35s to get the same punch as the YS-01.

Regarding the housings, the Ikelite housing is superior in practically every way. More reliable, more durable, repairable. (Canon housings are actually considered by Canon to be disposable should they break.) And if you feel you will eventually get into external mount lenses, the price difference between the Ikelite and Canon housings disappears as you have to buy a $100 mounting bracket to get lenses to fit the Canon housing whereas the Ikelite already has the mount built in. That being said, I still buy Canon housings. If you are not a hard core user you will likely never wear them out and they are smaller, more ergonomic and easier to pack.

And finally, is raw really worth it? The first time you go into a RAW photo in Lightroom or Canon DPP to correct the white balance and you click on a black spot somewhere in the photo and the software instantly puts all the colors straight, you will be hooked. The first time you brighten up and bring out the color in an underexposed image with a few simple clicks, you will be hooked. While you can with a fair amount of effort massage and manipulate jpegs to where they somewhat acceptable, you can actually fix RAW files to a reasonable extent and do it fairly easily.

PS, budget for a copy of Adobe Lightroom 3. Lightroom 4 is about to come out so Lightroom 3 should be on the clearance tables soon, probably somewhere in the $149-$179 range. If you aren't already signed up for the Newegg.com email specials, do so.

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

forget raw. If you require photochopping to fix what you can't get right in the first place, then you are just a post image engineer instead of a photographer.

Based on your situation, there are two specific strobes that I would recommend. The YS-01 is one of them and the Inon S2000 is the other. These two strobes represent the bottom end of what I (opinion) consider "real" strobes. These are the strobes that you will never regret buying. These are the strobes you never hear any complaints about. These are the kind of strobes you will keep as your system grows, either buying a twin for the other side or moving it over to the fill position if you get something stronger. Anything less (again, this is only an opinion) is a toy that you will ultimately wind up discarding and replacing due to it being underpowered or unreliable. You asked specifically about the AF35. It has a guide number of 9 where as the YS-01 has a guide number of 20 so you would need 2 of the AF35s to get the same punch as the YS-01.

You actually would require around 5 AF35 to have the brightness of a single YS-01. Plus the YS-01 has double the area of coverage (100 deg x 100 deg vs 70 deg x 70 deg), so that means 10 AF35 would be needed.

 

[cardog]

forget raw. If you require photochopping to fix what you can't get right in the first place, then you are just a post image engineer instead of a photographer.


You actually would require around 5 AF35 to have the brightness of a single YS-01. Plus the YS-01 has double the area of coverage (100 deg x 100 deg vs 70 deg x 70 deg), so that means 10 AF35 would be needed.

Why would you make this statement? When we all shot film we either sent it out for processing or developed and printed in our own darkrooms. Do you really see such a big difference between the two?

 

[DazedAndConfuzed]

Why would you make this statement? When we all shot film we either sent it out for processing or developed and printed in our own darkrooms. Do you really see such a big difference between the two?

because dodging and burning in the darkroom was skilled art, doing it in photochop is voodoo black magic that didn't involve the skill of the mouse clicker.