Opinions on what to do?

[jestadt]

Hello all ... I am hoping to figure out what to do between 2 options for underwater photography ...

I am a beginner diver ... certified last April ... have only done day dives and generaly dive between 10-15 meters ... not yet bored with this depth, nor looking to dive deeper ... At this point, I only go diving twice a year (usually for ~10 days per trip)

I have been shooting with SLRs for 15+ years ... enjoy the hobby of photography immensely ... I'm a DX shooter (mainly for the extra reach in birding and sports) and primarily use the D7000 (fiance has a D40) ... I do have a tokina 11-16 which I love

I will be going to Bonaire for an 11 night honeymoon and shore dive-a-thon and definitely want to take underwater videos and photos for nostalgic reasons in addition to capturing the wonders under the sea to share with friends and family who are unable to experience diving

So, I've been doing research and I am not sure whether to buy a housing for the D7000 or to get a point and shoot set up ...

Option 1
Ikelite D7000 housing
5510.22 port for the tokina
5510.45 8" dome
B&W +2 77m filter diopter
~$2k

Option 2
Cannon s100 (I know this is the Nikon niche, but this is a great P&S camera and seems to be the best bang for buck)
Ikelite s100 housing
Ikelite W-20 wide angle conversion wet lens
Ikelite tray with dual handles
~$1200

I was not planning on getting a strobe due to the fact I figure I should have plenty of light since I will not be going deep and I will be diving during the day (will probably try some night dives this trip, but not worried about pictures or video for night yet). And if need be, I have a 1000 lumen torchlight to use to light the way for any video or foreground lighting

So the Cannon set up is cheaper, lighter, allows for more focal lengths ...

The Nikon way would probably allow for better photography due to familiarity, better optics, and more manual control (assuming a prosumer dslr is better than a P&S)

I am kinda leaning towards the Cannon P&S route (even though we do not need another camera), but I am wondering if the right choice longer term is to spend the extra $800 now

Any experiences or opinions would be appreciated to help in this decision making process.

 

[rusti999]

Do you want to shoot macro as well? For those just starting in underwater photography, macro is easier than wide angle. If so, then probably you'll need to add to your SLR setup.

The main reason for a strobe is for the color, not for the light. If you want your pictures to come out mostly blue, or if you are diving really shallow, then maybe you don't need one. Otherwise, you'll probably find out sooner than later after you start taking pictures that you want at least one. I'd say this is even more so when you are doing wide angle, since your torch probably doesn't have wide enough beam coverage.

One more note. As an alternative to a strobe, you might also want to take a look into magic filters for restoring the color in your pictures:

http://www.magic-filters.com/

 

[PatW]

Like you, I shoot a DSLR on land.

I shot with a G11 with an Ike housing and strobes. I had decent luck with it. The G11 handles very well. There are several problems with it though. The focus depends on live view which has a pretty big lag. Focusing moving subjects is tough. The other problem is the focus itself. The G11 will focus on the outline of the subject. Getting a precise focus is not possible except in manual which is cumbersome. With a wet lens, you can take decent macro photos with a G11. With the Ike housing, you are limited to a 35 mm wide side or with the additional dome, 28 mm. Neither is very wide and with experience, you will find it not wide enough. I found that the Ike housing controls got out of whack after awhile and needed realignment by Ikelite.

Recently, I was highly encouraged to upgrade. I have a Nikon D7000 (really nice camera by the way), a Nauticam housing. The housing is far better fitted than the Ike (I am not denigrating Ike, the Nauticam housing is quite a bit more expensive too). Recently, I was down at the Blue Heron Bridge doing macro photography with a Nikon 60 mm macro lens (I know Nikon calls them micro lenses but that just seems wrong to me).

I was expecting the DSLR to be more cumbersome and harder to operate than the G11 with Ike housing. Paradoxically, it is much easier to handle. The focus on the DSLR is far more precise than the focus on the G11 especially when you seperate focus from the shutter button. I was able to focus. Let the eye of my subject get into exact focus and take the shot. It worked great. It is much easier to take good photos with this rig.

If you go the DSLR route, I would suggest you pick up a couple of strobes. If you go Ikelite, you can get used DS125 strobes for about half the price of the new DS160 strobes. You will need 2 strobes with your 11-16.

If you go with the DSLR, you really should think hard about getting a 60 mm macro.

 

[Larry C]

For your purposes, I'd go with the P & S. It's waaaay smaller and lighter and more versatile. You can take portraits of your new permanent dive buddy at wide angle and then take fish portraits or macro without having to change lenses. There are add on wet lenses available if you want to improve your capacity to take more artistic pictures, but as a new diver you'll find that 90% of what you're doing are fish portraits and diver pics.
The point and shoot can get the school, the grouper, your buddy behind the turtle or put it in macro mode and go for a shot of the Xmas tree worm.
With the D7000, you'll have to decide before the dive what you want to shoot and miss the other stuff. One alternative would be something like an 18-55 behind a mini dome, with a diopter. You are more flexible than with a macro or WA lens but you might not get a perfect shot on either end.
As a new diver, the load on your buoyancy skills and personal focus trying to haul around 15lbs of DSLR is probably a bit much. Also, your no strobe shots are likely to be better with the point and shoot because the native depth of field is better with the smaller lens and sensor. With the DSLR, you have to stop it down enough to get the DOF that you almost have to have a good strobe. (I'd recommend one even with the P & S if you want nice pics, but you can get away with a gel filter and manual light balance at the depths you're planning.

 

[jestadt]

Do you want to shoot macro as well? For those just starting in underwater photography, macro is easier than wide angle. If so, then probably you'll need to add to your SLR setup.

The main reason for a strobe is for the color, not for the light. If you want your pictures to come out mostly blue, or if you are diving really shallow, then maybe you don't need one. Otherwise, you'll probably find out sooner than later after you start taking pictures that you want at least one. I'd say this is even more so when you are doing wide angle, since your torch probably doesn't have wide enough beam coverage.

One more note. As an alternative to a strobe, you might also want to take a look into magic filters for restoring the color in your pictures:

M A G I C - F I L T E R S

I was not planning to shoot macro as I am not sure what subject I would want a reproduction ratio of 1:1 with (maybe a seahorse) ... with the number of megapixels today's digital cameras have, I could achieve "larger than life" prints (what some consider macro these days) with the tokina even though it is about a 1:11 reproduction ratio lens.

Good point about the color coming from the light ... I have seen many positive examples with the magic filters in my research ... I will add that to either option since the cost is relatively miniscule and seems to be recommended often.

Thanks rusti

---------- Post added at 06:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:21 PM ----------

Like you, I shoot a DSLR on land.

I shot with a G11 with an Ike housing and strobes. I had decent luck with it. The G11 handles very well. There are several problems with it though. The focus depends on live view which has a pretty big lag. Focusing moving subjects is tough. The other problem is the focus itself. The G11 will focus on the outline of the subject. Getting a precise focus is not possible except in manual which is cumbersome. With a wet lens, you can take decent macro photos with a G11. With the Ike housing, you are limited to a 35 mm wide side or with the additional dome, 28 mm. Neither is very wide and with experience, you will find it not wide enough. I found that the Ike housing controls got out of whack after awhile and needed realignment by Ikelite.

Recently, I was highly encouraged to upgrade. I have a Nikon D7000 (really nice camera by the way), a Nauticam housing. The housing is far better fitted than the Ike (I am not denigrating Ike, the Nauticam housing is quite a bit more expensive too). Recently, I was down at the Blue Heron Bridge doing macro photography with a Nikon 60 mm macro lens (I know Nikon calls them micro lenses but that just seems wrong to me).

I was expecting the DSLR to be more cumbersome and harder to operate than the G11 with Ike housing. Paradoxically, it is much easier to handle. The focus on the DSLR is far more precise than the focus on the G11 especially when you seperate focus from the shutter button. I was able to focus. Let the eye of my subject get into exact focus and take the shot. It worked great. It is much easier to take good photos with this rig.

If you go the DSLR route, I would suggest you pick up a couple of strobes. If you go Ikelite, you can get used DS125 strobes for about half the price of the new DS160 strobes. You will need 2 strobes with your 11-16.

If you go with the DSLR, you really should think hard about getting a 60 mm macro.

Thanks PatW. Your G11 sentiments was what I was worried about with the P&S s100...if I take a shot of a small fish, will the P&S s100 focuse on the fish's eye or tail or the background or somewhere else ... would I basically just have to stop down to get a large depth of field which most likely means I'd need extra light to keep a quick exposure/fast shutter ... I should probably get my hands on an s100 to see what is available and how well the focus works with "live view" or whatever Cannon's equivalant is called.

Why so big on the macro? And why 60mm? Why not a 105 or 150 macro (figuring some added distance may help inflict less influence on the subject)?

---------- Post added at 06:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

For your purposes, I'd go with the P & S. It's waaaay smaller and lighter and more versatile. You can take portraits of your new permanent dive buddy at wide angle and then take fish portraits or macro without having to change lenses. There are add on wet lenses available if you want to improve your capacity to take more artistic pictures, but as a new diver you'll find that 90% of what you're doing are fish portraits and diver pics.
The point and shoot can get the school, the grouper, your buddy behind the turtle or put it in macro mode and go for a shot of the Xmas tree worm.
With the D7000, you'll have to decide before the dive what you want to shoot and miss the other stuff. One alternative would be something like an 18-55 behind a mini dome, with a diopter. You are more flexible than with a macro or WA lens but you might not get a perfect shot on either end.
As a new diver, the load on your buoyancy skills and personal focus trying to haul around 15lbs of DSLR is probably a bit much. Also, your no strobe shots are likely to be better with the point and shoot because the native depth of field is better with the smaller lens and sensor. With the DSLR, you have to stop it down enough to get the DOF that you almost have to have a good strobe. (I'd recommend one even with the P & S if you want nice pics, but you can get away with a gel filter and manual light balance at the depths you're planning.

Thanks Larry C. I believe you just stated everything I was thinking (consciously or unconsciously) which is why I was leaning towards the P&S even though I would prefer to use the dSLR.

My diving skills, as well as my ability to digitally capture whatever, whenever with ease seems like P&S is the way to go.

I was worried that spending the money on a P&S setup was really not worth it as I would be highly unsatisfied with the pictures/videos the s100 could deliver. However, it appears the s100 can deliver some nicer than expected underwater photos and videos (upon further research - googling - youtube), even without a strobe (though more investigation on to strobe or not to strobe needs to be done). Combining this with the flexibility and usability as a beginner diver may mean I get to take shots I would not be able to take with the dSLR.

Thanks again.

 

[farsidefan1]

There are several threads that include photo galleries taken by "point and shoot" cameras. I think you might be pleasantly surprised at the quality. It is the photographer, not the camera that makes the biggest difference. Just go check out Gilligans shots in the canon forum or any of dozens of others that demonstrate the power of the photographer. A strobe makes a huge difference for color and reduced back scatter but just check out those "simple gear shots". Point and shoot is probably a misnomer but I'm talking about non dslr multi strobe outfits.

 

[rusti999]

To address a couple of your remarks:

I was not planning to shoot macro as I am not sure what subject I would want a reproduction ratio of 1:1 with (maybe a seahorse) ... with the number of megapixels today's digital cameras have, I could achieve "larger than life" prints (what some consider macro these days) with the tokina even though it is about a 1:11 reproduction ratio lens.

Depending on where you dive, there can be lots and lots of underwater macro subjects. I personally have a soft spot for nudibranchs. I think this is the case as well with a lot of underwater photographers. Also on YouTube, search for "pygmy seahorse".

And why 60mm? Why not a 105 or 150 macro (figuring some added distance may help inflict less influence on the subject)?

This page might answer your questions here:

macro lens comparison 60mm 100mm 105mm|Underwater Photography Guide

 

[jghflash]

When you get to Bonaire you'll understand the macro comments......it's a macro heaven. I sometimes spend a whole dive covering 25 feet of reef and never come close to seeing everything that's there. You obviously sound like an accomplished land shooter so you will most likely be disappointed in anything you do without strobes. I tried a magic filter but was not happy and I freely admit I didn't give it a fair shot, but I ma very happy with my strobes. You simply lose too much color in the first 15' to 20' of water and it doesn't come back great if you don't use a strobe. One is fine to get a lot of really good pictures with the P&S or the D7000 with a macro (micro???) lens. You need two to get good coverage if you have a decent wide angle lens IMO. Bottom line is "welcome to the underwater photography moneypit"!

 

[jestadt]

Thank you all for your opinions, experiences, and general help.

The s100 w/ikelite housing it is!

Time to do further research on what to add with the ikelite housing and s100, but thus far it looks like fantasea arms and trays are a great bang for the buck and the sea&sea ys-01 strobe with fiber cable seems to fit the same bill as well ...

If I add the WD-20 as mentioned before, I believe I would have a versatile kit that could handle wide and some macro.

Anything I am missing (besides adding a second strobe )?

 

[rusti999]

Time to do further research on what to add with the ikelite housing and s100, but thus far it looks like fantasea arms and trays are a great bang for the buck and the sea&sea ys-01 strobe with fiber cable seems to fit the same bill as well ...

Using the YS-01 strobe with fiber optic sync is not the best solution with the Ikelite. If you decide to go there, you might need to paint the housing black. Also since you were considering both P&S and DSLR, have you considered the micro 4/3s? They lie in between P&S (interchangeable lens, larger sensor than a compact but smaller than a DSLR, mirrorless). The Olympus ones are quite affordable (both camera and housing), for instance, E-PM1 and E-PL3. And you can use fiber optic sync with the strobes for the Olympus housing. Something for you to consider.