old school or young fool?

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pants!:
No I haven't.....

I run a line on every ocean dive that I solo on and every ocean dive if the viz is poor
Frog, mod frog, mod flutter, helicopter, and reverse... I use them all... my buddies use them all.. the frog is of course the best general purpose kick though..


Did they teach you how to pull on things in cavern..?
of course they did, how would one enter a high flow cave?

I use the rear dump most of the time... not all of the time though.. both are used in GUE classes...
From snowplow to rear dumps a big arm movement. My left hand has my inflater in it . very small arm movement to dump, no arm movement to adjust buoancy

This is taught in GUE classes as well.. multiple light signals are taught in GUE classes and covered in GUE materials.
that's good, do they teach you to shine your light on your hand for hand signals
So, back to my question.. what is taught in cavern that you don't get in a GUE class..?
do you use a long hose in open water for ease of airshare on an oog diver? in cavern it's used for single file gas donation (even though cavern doesn't include restrictions)
 
nova:
do you use a long hose in open water for ease of airshare on an oog diver? in cavern it's used for single file gas donation (even though cavern doesn't include restrictions)
GUE teaches use of the long hose, just like cavern does. There are many reasons for it, including ease of air shares, maximum versatility, and a consistent gear configuration whether diving overhead or not. The origins of the long hose (overhead diving, single file exits, etc) are also taught.

So this is one example of something that is taught in both classes.

Is there anything taught in cavern that is not taught by GUE?
 
Jawbone:
Nova you state these things are critical failures. You also state you dive a hog rig. So I would imagine you consider yourself Holgarthian. If that is the case, I dont understand something about this post. These things you state are critical failures are hogarthian as well as DIR! These are the things that Main and Gavin incorparated into what is Hogarthian Diving. So while you lash out at DIR which by the way I'am not, your "critical failures" become your own according to you if you are a true hogarthian diver. So whats your point. If you dont like DIR and hogarthian way of diving then dont do it. For those that do, so what is it you. Also I do consider myself a hogarthian diver. The diving I do, my planning, choice of buddies and such is no different than the dir crowd. So they are really not all that different. See my point here.
my spg is under my left harness strap. my buckle is offcenter to avoid pull the wrong buckle(weight belt). I carry a pony on single tank solo dives. the ball is still on my rear dump because I wear heavy gloves.

hogarthian allows a diver to modify the gear configuration to the dive , not the dive to the gear configuration. that's my take on the hog rigged diver
 
pants!:
GUE teaches use of the long hose, just like cavern does. There are many reasons for it, including ease of air shares, maximum versatility, and a consistent gear configuration whether diving overhead or not. The origins of the long hose (overhead diving, single file exits, etc) are also taught.

So this is one example of something that is taught in both classes.

Is there anything taught in cavern that is not taught by GUE?
sorry I forgot how too cut and paste so it looks like I modified your post when I used the quote button. If you read your quote on my post you'll see some words that you didn't write. a thousand pardons

and to answer your question, If they don't teach you how to run a reel then they can't teach you lost line drills and zero viz line exits
 
Oh OK....

We're just talking about OW divers here, not overhead divers. Pull and glide isn't something that needs to be taught, IMO, as divers do it anyway.

Lost line drills and zero vis line exits are out as well.

Yes, they do teach to illuminate your hand for signaling in the dark.

I think I have a clear understanding of your position, but I'm at a loss to explain why you think GUE training is *inferior*, since you can't name anything (besides actual in-cave skills) that your beloved cavern course includes.
 
pants!:
Oh OK....

We're just talking about OW divers here, not overhead divers. Pull and glide isn't something that needs to be taught, IMO, as divers do it anyway.

Lost line drills and zero vis line exits are out as well.

Yes, they do teach to illuminate your hand for signaling in the dark.

I think I have a clear understanding of your position, but I'm at a loss to explain why you think GUE training is *inferior*, since you can't name anything (besides actual in-cave skills) that your beloved cavern course includes.
the correct pull and glide is not taught to open water divers

the use of a safety reel is an open water skill and is not taught in fundies . divers do run lines in open water wreck diving and this skill is not taught in fundies.

but as you pointed out , if the two courses are teaching the same basic skills for about the same money, why not take the course that gets you diving in overhead dives? Did I say "inferior"? hmmm I tend not to use that word. It causes to much strife :D
 
nova:
but as you pointed out , if the two courses are teaching the same basic skills for about the same money, why not take the course that gets you diving in overhead dives? Did I say "inferior"? hmmm I tend not to use that word. It causes to much strife :D
You said "better" and "critical failures," that's for sure.

It's your contention that the classes teach the same basic skills. In fact they probably do.. but then I've seen divers with NSS cavern certifications that don't have nearly the level of skill required to pass a Fundamentals class. And I've seen certified cave divers doing some really boneheaded things diving some really boneheaded gear.

I'm not saying that you do, or even that most cave divers do. But obviously there are instructors out there teaching cave classes that are really, for lack of a better term, dumb.

I'm quite sure your skills are at a very high level, and I commend you for that. I also don't hesitate to commend cave instructors who are teaching their students high levels of skill.

However, GUE is attempting to create a very consistent level of admittedly high skill among its divers. It's also attempting to create a very consistent set of gear and procedures among its divers, partly in order to foster the team concept.

It would appear to me that you are railing against the attitudes of some divers who claim to be DIR. That is of course perfectly acceptable... in my opinion, anyone with that much of an ego deserves it. However, that ego is not universally displayed by everyone associated with GUE, so perhaps you should reserve the criticism for the divers who display such bravado, and not everyone who believes in the system?
 
pants!:
You said "better" and "critical failures," that's for sure.

It's your contention that the classes teach the same basic skills. In fact they probably do.. but then I've seen divers with NSS cavern certifications that don't have nearly the level of skill required to pass a Fundamentals class. And I've seen certified cave divers doing some really boneheaded things diving some really boneheaded gear.

I'm not saying that you do, or even that most cave divers do. But obviously there are instructors out there teaching cave classes that are really, for lack of a better term, dumb.

I'm quite sure your skills are at a very high level, and I commend you for that. I also don't hesitate to commend cave instructors who are teaching their students high levels of skill.

However, GUE is attempting to create a very consistent level of admittedly high skill among its divers. It's also attempting to create a very consistent set of gear and procedures among its divers, partly in order to foster the team concept.

It would appear to me that you are railing against the attitudes of some divers who claim to be DIR. That is of course perfectly acceptable... in my opinion, anyone with that much of an ego deserves it. However, that ego is not universally displayed by everyone associated with GUE, so perhaps you should reserve the criticism for the divers who display such bravado, and not everyone who believes in the system?
I've been trying to explain to people that I do dive with some GUE trained divers and their skill is very high indeed. But they don't have a patent on skill. the same skills can be found elsewhere in the industry. Not every GUE trained diver is a work of art, some get rusty if they don't stay wet . So to me, the GUE training is only as good as the divers last dive. A fundies diver with 50 dives is still only a diver with 50 dives. I hope this makes sense.
 
nova:
I've been trying to explain to people that I do dive with some GUE trained divers and their skill is very high indeed. But they don't have a patent on skill. the same skills can be found elsewhere in the industry. Not every GUE trained diver is a work of art, some get rusty if they don't stay wet . So to me, the GUE training is only as good as the divers last dive. A fundies diver with 50 dives is still only a diver with 50 dives. I hope this makes sense.
Makes perfect sense and we are in 100% agreement here.

Compared to the post that started this thread, this post is a model of civility and makes a fantastic point I think that most people would agree with - most DIR divers included.

I commend you on making this statement.
 
NWGratefulDiver:
I'm still working on the right to consider myself a diver ... I'll take training and learn things from any source that offers me something I feel is worth having. I don't care about agency affiliations ... I didn't get into diving to join a club, or involve myself in "contests" with self-proclaimed uberachievers.

FWIW - most of what I've learned on the subject came about underwater ... with divers who cared enough to take the time to dive with me and help me improve my skills. Many of those were DIR trained ... some were not.

None of them were fools ... nor were most really concerned about labels or agencies.

We just want to go diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I just have to say I TOTALLY agree with Bob. Very well said!

Carol :D
 
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