NAVY Seal rebreathers

[aparatchiki]

I just finished watchng the 6 episode documentary by discovery channel about the training of Navy SEALS called BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition school). it covered the 25-week training period of class 234.

the film showed the experience of 125 + students who will go thru BUDS From the 1st day of training...going thru hell week... dive phase training... waterborne operations... urban/land warfare....all the way to the graduation day.

ok, ok...wat's this got to do with rebreathers, you say?

here it is on episode 5...it showed about the DIVE phase training of BUD/S...its supposed to be a nine-week training phase where they are taught everything about diving from open circuit scuba to draeger lar V rebreathers

The film showed how the students were taught free diving techniques, Free Swimming ascents (similar to CESA in PADI OW) and dive procedures, dive medicine and physics, etc. including gear exchange, ditch & don, navigation underwater, etc.

Like i mentioned...the dive phase training lasts only 9 weeks (after that its land warfare training)... and the SEAL instructors mentioned that some of the students who go thru BUD/S training have never had extensive (if any at all) experience in water (just water...as in Pool water...and not even the ocean...)

and yet they breezed thru Open circuit and rebreathers in 9 weeks....ok ok, i've read the comments that one should get at least 500 dives or more (way more as said in the other thread...i think like 1000+ dives) before trying on CCRs...but how come these boys (yes boys they are...they have 17 year olds there on the documentary on training, mind you) go thru the whole she-bang in 9 weeks? now i dont think they could accumulate 500 dives in the short span of 9 weeks in OC (less than 9 weeks becuase halfway thru the dive phase they shift to CCRs) they can accumulate 500+ dives already.

Now, im posting it here for some healthy exchange of ideas...i just got curious what some people here have to say about it.

*cheers*

 

[rigdiver]

It's the military. As far as CCR you must be advanced EANx to enter that course. # of dives for CCR is highly debateable. You could be at Advanced Nitrox in less than 50 dives.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Dobre utro tovarisch Apparatchiki!

The question you raise is central to a very good discussion about exactly when is a diver "ready" for rebreather training.

Some time ago, the Japanese had a system in which they trained divers from ab initio to Open Water, solely on rebreathers. It worked well. It is not in effect now because of financial problems with the rebreather company which caused its collapse.

Navy SEAL's, like commercial divers, are tool users. The rebreather is a tool. In practice, they use the bloody things to commute to work. They then, generally, throw the things away, and go about their real job of killing people and blowing things up; which, by the way, they are very good at.

As an instructor on rebreathers, my view is that a diver is ready for rebreathers when that diver is mentally mature enough to adhere rigorously to proper procedure. Period. It is not age specific.

As for previous OC experience, your bouyancy WILL go to Hell for a while, until you change your automated responses, so in the end, it does not matter.

Cheers!

Rob

 

[Mr.X]

I don't know too much about SEAL training. However the LAR V and the mechanics of CCR/SCR units are quite simple. A seal candidate probably has a reasonable amount of intelligence and probably more than a modicum of being able to follow rote instruction. Following procedures is very, very important when it comes to piloting an RB.

 

[aparatchiki]

Dobre utro tovarisch Apparatchiki!

The question you raise is central to a very good discussion about exactly when is a diver "ready" for rebreather training.

Some time ago, the Japanese had a system in which they trained divers from ab initio to Open Water, solely on rebreathers. It worked well. It is not in effect now because of financial problems with the rebreather company caused its collapse.

Navy SEAL's, like commercial divers, are tool users. The rebreather is a tool. In practice, they use the bloody things to commute to work. They then, generally, throw the things away, and go about their real job of killing people and blowing things up; which, by the way, they are very good at.

As an instructor on rebreathers, my view is that a diver is ready for rebreathers when that diver is mentally mature enough to adhere rigorously to proper procedure. Period. It is not age specific.

As for previous OC experience, your bouyancy WILL go to Hell for a while, until you change your automated responses, so in the end, it does not matter.

Cheers!

Rob

Thanks for the very enlightening reply.

well, you see after reading from the other thread about rebreathers (here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=119875)... they mentioned about age, # of logged dives, etc etc etc... before making the transition to rebreathers and it made me think how come its done differently in the military (or on the documentary fil i just saw)

well...we can say its the military that's why they do such things...but didnt we get the idea of diving from them in the first place? just makes me wonder what they're doing right (or wrong) or differently than "us"

oh and about this:

Dobre utro tovarisch Apparatchiki!

i dont what the heck that means... is that russian...edumacate me please hehehe

 

[mmadiver]

What they showed on the discovery channel was a very watered down presentation of what BUDS is. I'm not a SEAL but I do have quite a bit of knowledge of the program. I do know that the training they recieve in BUDS is only a small portion of the total training they recieve. Infact the technical knowledge they gain in BUDS is very limited. There is follow on training after BUDS that all the students go to where they really learn the in's and out's of their job. My interpretation is that BUDS is a test and they give you limited knowledge so that you can safely use pieces of equipment in order to test your mental/physical abilities and stamina.

BUDS is only 6 months. I belive SEALs do a couple more years of training after BUDS to become fully competent with all of their equipment.

I am not a SEAL so my information may not be totally acurate, you'd have to ask a SEAL. I did however recently get selected for Navy Special Operations and will be attending dive school in a few months. The initial course is 80 something days and we learn rebreathers as well. . . So I'll get back to you if I think the training and preperation was adequate.

 

[aparatchiki]

What they showed on the discovery channel was a very watered down presentation of what BUDS is. I'm not a SEAL but I do have quite a bit of knowledge of the program. I do know that the training they recieve in BUDS is only a small portion of the total training they recieve. Infact the technical knowledge they gain in BUDS is very limited. There is follow on training after BUDS that all the students go to where they really learn the in's and out's of their job. My interpretation is that BUDS is a test and they give you limited knowledge so that you can safely use pieces of equipment in order to test your mental/physical abilities and stamina.

BUDS is only 6 months. I belive SEALs do a couple more years of training after BUDS to become fully competent with all of their equipment.

I am not a SEAL so my information may not be totally acurate, you'd have to ask a SEAL. I did however recently get selected for Navy Special Operations and will be attending dive school in a few months. The initial course is 80 something days and we learn rebreathers as well. . . So I'll get back to you if I think the training and preperation was adequate.

Nayv SpecOps...wow! congratulations! very cool indeed. :-D

ok back to the topic...i realized that the documentary is edited and "watered down" as compared to the reality of what's happening in BUDS.

i guess my entire point here is that given the amount of time to learn OC scuba diving...then transitioning to rebreathers in 9 weeks... is that enough? ok let's say it is limited... (i really wouldnt know) im just curious...having this situation in the navy in mind...when's the best time really to try out rebreathers at least for a "mere mortal" like myself for example:-D

certainly most people would discourage divers with less than 100 dives to try out rebreathers... (well at least that's how i read it in the forums) ...how come?
:06:

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I'm not a RB diver...yet... but let me take a shot here.

You can't do a direct comparison between what the SEALS do, and what recreational (or especially tech) divers can/should do.

For instance, the LAR-V RB mentioned by Mr. X is an oxygen RB. If that's the RB the SEALS are trained to use in BUD/S, then the training could be comparatively simple. They would have to learn some skills common to all RBs, like maintaining the scrubber, but operationally there are two basic rules: make sure you have O2 in your supply bottle and make sure you don't go below 20' for any length of time (although I've read here on SB that they are trained to go up to 45' or so if absolutely necessary, and within exertion and time limits). If you only have O2 in the system, then learning Adv. Nitrox would be a waste of time.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Thanks for the very enlightening reply.

well, you see after reading from the other thread about rebreathers (here: http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=119875)... they mentioned about age, # of logged dives, etc etc etc... before making the transition to rebreathers and it made me think how come its done differently in the military (or on the documentary fil i just saw)

well...we can say its the military that's why they do such things...but didnt we get the idea of diving from them in the first place? just makes me wonder what they're doing right (or wrong) or differently than "us"

oh and about this:

Dobre utro tovarisch Apparatchiki!

i dont what the heck that means... is that russian...edumacate me please hehehe

Since your "handle" is the friendly diminuitive form for "a member of the organs of the State apparatus" in Russian, I just said: "Good morning comrade (fellow apparatchnik)!"

Actually, the rebreather stuff came originally (at least in current form) from Draeger, circa 1909.

Rob

 

[mmadiver]

SEALS learn to dive on SCUBA gear that is similar to their rebreathers (The double hose). They also breath pure oxygen on their dreagers and because of that dont dive any deeper than 30 feet (I belive). They use this tool for a specific purpose and generally don't need do any deep or technical diving, thats when SpecOps is called in. For their purposes the training is adequate. For Navy SpecOps guys who do advanced technical and deep diving the training on that equipment takes many months and after they qualify to use it they practice with it continually.

Understand that the SEALS are genearlly not diving below 30 feet because their mission. They learn to utalize the equipment for exactly what they need. Their training in dive equipment is not as indepth as say a Navy master diver doing a saturation dive to 300 feet....


Again I'm not a SEAL, so take all this with a grain of salt.

A good book on this stuff is "The Warrior Elite" by Dick Couch. I belive he follows the same class that the Discovery channel did but goes into ALOT more depth specifically about the dive equipment.