Looking to take cavern & intro. Feedback welcomed.

[scubastingray]

Hello,
I'm looking to get into caving a bit this summer, and would love to hear your advice on my plan/feedback regarding the route I plan on going.

I'm currently nitrox, and AOW. I've got about 50 dives, and the last 10 or so have been in back mount doubles. I am pretty proficient with buoyancy, and have been practicing getting neutral in doubles and trying to work on my trim. I've also been practicing my frogs.

I don't know that I want to get into full cave, but I think basic shorter dives will keep me busy in the near to distant future. Ideally I'll get a good basis for overhead environments to apply to later tech courses.

So the plan: I hope to do cavern & intro towards the end of july (I'm not sure if this is too late notice to schedule instruction).
I see plenty of people talk about paying extra for "quality" instruction, and while I want to make sure I get good instruction money is a slight concern as I'm a recent college grad and money isn't exactly limitless. Thankfully I have most of my gear taken care of (I'm sure a few changes will occur), including:

HOG D1 colds with the long hose setup.
Hollis 60lb wing, alu backplate, standard harness
A couple sets of Doubles (MP 80s, HP100s hopefully in the next few weeks)
4 or so 1k lumen chinese lights. I'll be using them in the next few weeks to test reliability extensively. The ones I've used so far are great.
2 Dive Rite computers
a couple sets of fins I like (mares plana avanti)
and I couldn't contain my excitement so I foolishly just bought a dive rite primary and cavern reel
full exposure protection, although I may switch to something thicker if the dives are a bit longer. It feels like too much of a cop out to break out the dry suit for my weanie intro and cavern dives.
a couple well fitting masks

With that in mind, has anyone used the instructors through Ginnie Springs? If so, who did you end up with and did you like learning from them? Is there another instructor in that price range you would recommend($300 as I have a friend that is looking to do it also, which is the price listed on their site for each with 2 people)?

Long term goals for the technical side include wreck and deeper colder northern dives (on lake erie), and hopefully enjoying all the awesome FL state parks.


Thanks for sticking with me through this, and I look forward to hearing your feedback.

 

[kwinter]

I'm not sure where you are looking, but I don't think you will get training for a combo cavern/intro course for $300. The Ginnie site I looked at (Ginnie Springs Outdoors) lists that fee for each course, so you would be talking about $600 each. A combo course will probably take 3-4 days for 8-10 dives. Some may look at the number of dives you have done, while others look at skills and comfort in the water. A "good" instructor is the key to learning, and that means finding one whose teaching style matches your learning style. Prices for combination cavern/intro might be anywhere from $500 to $700. I'm sure there are some cave divers in your area that could give you personal recommendations, but the key is to talk with and possibly meet with the instructor to see if it is a good fit. Don't let price be your guide.

 

[scubastingray]

Oops, yeah I figured $300 for each section. Sorry if that was unclear. I know I'm on the light side of dives, but I think I have well above average skills for someone of my experience, and an eagerness to learn. I hope that helps make up for it.
To be clear, price isn't THE deciding factor, but money is an object unfortunately. I also know there will be other incidental costs not included with that, and I will certainly be reconfiguring my gear a bit.

 

[Omisson]

Costs will be 300-400 per section 600-800 for cavern and intro. That's without fills,tank rentals and lodging. There are many great instructors in Cave Country like Jim Wyatt NSSCDS training director, Reggie Ross, or Ginnie instructor Johnny Richards, with a huge cross section of dive shops Extreme Exposure, Amigos, Cave Country, Cave Adventures, Cave Connections, Dive Outposts - and in Marianna IUCRR renowned instructor Edd Sorrenson at Cave Adventurers is first rate, depending on the systems you want to dive. High Springs-Live Oak also has lots of frequent visiting instructors, like TJ Johnson from Dayo Scuba in Orlando or Pavan Arlington, from Dixie Divers Ft.Lauderdale.

You need to factor in the costs of staying there too- high springs country inn, Rennakers place, hotel California, Wayne's trailers, etc. If you are going with someone, renting a cottage may be cheaper than motel. Also daily costs at public parks and 30 a day at ginnie.

And on the training end there are also issues of configuring gear, light and reel comfort - redundancy, and true zero viz comfort. Do you have a good primary light? You mention 4 Chinese 1k lights, which? You gotta service them before diving- check I rings, seals, battery life.

Which dive computers? Newer? Nitek Q? Redundant bottom timer?

Have you bought the NSS and NACD workbooks? Blueprint for survival? Read them thoroughly? Practiced running reels? Mask off drills?

Good idea to be prepared ahead of the class- could save valuable time in getting proficient.




Dan-O

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[scubastingray]

Hm okay, I'll keep all those names in mind as I start to look around. I was hoping to do Ginnie or Peacock for the training, but I don't really know which sites are appropriate for cavern and intro (something I assume will be covered).

I figured I'd have to factor in costs to stay, and costs at the parks.

The lights I have will probably make some cringe, but many likely use the same lights without realizing. They're all based off of the Cree XM-L T6, and I've got 4 variants of that. I've replaced the O-rings on a few of them, and the rest are in good shape. I always keep an eye on them and use silicone as needed. Burn time is an hour and a half or so at good light output. I assume I won't be doing dives any longer than that anyway (there's no DECO in these courses if i recall correctly). Reliability is something I assume is there, but I'll be testing them as much as possible before I start just to make sure I'm comfortable with it.

The computers are the Nitek Plus models. I picked them both up pretty inexpensively, and they do nitrox, and one gas switch. I've serviced the o-ring and batteries on them, and will be doing some trial dives with the new batteries. I assume two computers is fine because i can always run them in bottom timer mode if need be. I do not have another bottom timer.

I haven't bought any workbooks yet, although once I figure out which agency the training will be under I will do so. Once I have that I think I can practice the reel drills. I have a spool, and those two mentioned reels (which I actually ordered from Edd Sorrenson). I am very comfortable removing, adjusting, flooding, and clearing my mask underwater. I haven't done it on my last few dives I guess, just because I get a fantastic seal and don't touch the thing for the entire dive.

Hopefully I can prepare beforehand. That was part of the reason I quickly moved to the long hose on my singles setup, and have been getting practice dives in the doubles.


One thing I wonder if someone can answer (and I know a definitive answer will be needed from the instructor I end up with) is: Is it typically permitted to complete cavern in doubles? I see on the ginnie website that they state it is done in a singles setup. I plan on diving doubles anyway, so will they instruct me in doubles, or do the valve shutoff drills go beyond the scope of cavern, so most instructors dislike them?

 

[Omisson]

If you are doing Cavern/Basic combo you can do cavern in doubles.


Dan-O

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[kwinter]

Cavern/Intro in doubles will be up to the instructor and depend on how much experience and comfort you have with them. You will be limited to sixths rather than thirds. It is obviously something to discuss with the instructor before signing up for class. If you have to do singles, you will need H-valves or Y-valves.

Don't spend too much on specific cave gear yet. What you have might be sufficient. Your instructor will let you know (remember it is only his opinion) and should be able to lend/rent anything you are missing.

Ginnie has advantages and disadvantages. It is more expensive than most other places (it gets cheaper after you are full cave certified) and can be ridiculously crowded with rowdy students at times. Again, find an instructor you trust and leave the location decision to him (or her).

Dan's suggestions are some well known names. I believe Jim Wyatt is relocating to the Keys, but will certainly continue training in cave country. TJ Johnson at Dayo used to be a low cost alternative, but actually seems to be higher now. I did my initial training many years ago with Mike O'Leary, former president of NACD. His site is cavediving.org and his price is listed as $550 for the 3-day combo. Mike is ex-marine and instructs that way. I think we did our training at Peacock and Cow, using Dive Outpost as our base. There are many good choices.

Check out reports and reputation yourself by joining CDF (Cave Diver Forum) at cavediver.net. It is a great resource to see reports from other newbies as well as reading about equipment, etc. And of course the cave diving section of Scubaboard.

Good luck.



iPhone. iTypo. iApologize.

 

[kensuf]

Depending on the instructor, expect four solid days of training and 8-12 dives. My cavern students typically spend 180 minutes under water in 7 or 8 dives, and my intro classes will usually get somewhere close to that too.

The costs vary from instructor to instructor, but I charge a flat $300 per day (up to two students), and if you earn a c-card it's $25. I have openings at the end of July if you're interested, certification is offered through TDI and I can provide references.

Ken

 

[Kathleen Seide]

Welcome to the dark side!

I'd suggest taking cavern first, and getting some dives in at that level before taking intro. There are a lot of new skills to learn, and it's good to be in the cavern while you are building muscle memory. There's a lot to see there anyway, and it's easy to miss it if you are focused on getting further into the cave.

Your instructor will pick which dives sites are best for your class. I did my cavern at Manatee. There are more caves open than a month ago, so it's less crowded.

There are a ton of great instructors. Some people stick with one all the way through. If that's your plan be aware that Ginnie only teaches upto intro. If Rose was still teaching I'd say go there and ask for her. I liked the idea of having new instructors as I progressed, who could give me different perspectives.

Here'ss the NSS-CDS instructor list, NSS-CDS Instructor Listing | National Speleological Society Cave Diving Section

NACD list: » Instructors National Association for Cave Diving

Lots of great divers there. pm me if you want info on someone, or go on the cave forums (CDF or Deco Stop) and cyber stalk them to see if you might get along well.

 

[Omisson]

Hm okay, I'll keep all those names in mind as I start to look around. I was hoping to do Ginnie or Peacock for the training, but I don't really know which sites are appropriate for cavern and intro (something I assume will be covered).

I figured I'd have to factor in costs to stay, and costs at the parks.

The lights I have will probably make some cringe, but many likely use the same lights without realizing. They're all based off of the Cree XM-L T6, and I've got 4 variants of that. I've replaced the O-rings on a few of them, and the rest are in good shape. I always keep an eye on them and use silicone as needed. Burn time is an hour and a half or so at good light output. I assume I won't be doing dives any longer than that anyway (there's no DECO in these courses if i recall correctly). Reliability is something I assume is there, but I'll be testing them as much as possible before I start just to make sure I'm comfortable with it.

The computers are the Nitek Plus models. I picked them both up pretty inexpensively, and they do nitrox, and one gas switch. I've serviced the o-ring and batteries on them, and will be doing some trial dives with the new batteries. I assume two computers is fine because i can always run them in bottom timer mode if need be. I do not have another bottom timer.

I haven't bought any workbooks yet, although once I figure out which agency the training will be under I will do so. Once I have that I think I can practice the reel drills. I have a spool, and those two mentioned reels (which I actually ordered from Edd Sorrenson). I am very comfortable removing, adjusting, flooding, and clearing my mask underwater. I haven't done it on my last few dives I guess, just because I get a fantastic seal and don't touch the thing for the entire dive.

Hopefully I can prepare beforehand. That was part of the reason I quickly moved to the long hose on my singles setup, and have been getting practice dives in the doubles.


One thing I wonder if someone can answer (and I know a definitive answer will be needed from the instructor I end up with) is: Is it typically permitted to complete cavern in doubles? I see on the ginnie website that they state it is done in a singles setup. I plan on diving doubles anyway, so will they instruct me in doubles, or do the valve shutoff drills go beyond the scope of cavern, so most instructors dislike them?

IFirst, I would read Blueprint for Survival before choosing any agency. I'd also recommend owning both manuals to give you a broad perspective. Cave diving is both art and science and since safety is priority one, I'd say read everything you can, as early as you can, and as often as you can. Did I mention you should read and re-read as much as you can.

As an aside, Do you have any Tec training? Intro to Tec, Tec 40 or Deco procedures or Adv Nitrox? I'd certainly advocate that training after cavern and before basic cave. Cavern isn't a technical course, but Basic cave is. It would be good to have some technical training - even though it's not a requirement.

Just my 2 cents.


Dan-O

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